May 12,
2014
HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS
Vol. XLVII No. 25
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
MR.
SPEAKER (Wiseman):
Order, please!
Admit strangers.
Before we start proceedings today, I want to welcome
some special guests to our galleries.
Today we are joined by Mr. Isaac Bonisteel of New
Harbour, who is a student at Crescent Collegiate, and he is the winner of the
2014 Lester B. Pearson Scholarship.
He is accompanied today by his sister, Erin, and their mother, Mary Harris.
Welcome, all of you, to our Assembly.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
Statements by Members
MR.
SPEAKER:
Today we will have members' statements from the District of Lake Melville, the
Member for the District of Harbour Grace Carbonear, the Member for the
District of Lewisporte, the Member for the District of Humber Valley, the Member
for the District of Virginia Waters, and the Member for the District of St.
Barbe.
The hon. the Member for the District of Lake Melville.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
RUSSELL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to recognize Mr. Everett Cull of Happy
Valley-Goose Bay for his honesty and due diligence.
Mr. Cull is a taxicab driver who during one of his runs
happened to overhear a conversation where an elder mentioned they had lost a
significant sum of money. Mr. Cull
took note of the situation; and on a run the next day when another customer
opened the door to exit the taxi, a gust of wind swooped up a bit of cash
revealing its location.
Worrying that this might have been the other
passenger's money, Mr. Cull decided to contact those who previously received a
ride from him. He waited a week, and
after hearing no other inquiries about lost money, he handed over the cash
over $1,000, Mr. Speaker to that elder.
Mr. Cull should truly be commended for his absolute honesty.
I ask all hon. members of this House to join me in
recognizing Mr. Everett Cull, an honest hardworking Labrador man.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace.
MR.
SLADE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I rise in this hon. House today to
recognize a group of young men and women in my district, the Victoria United
Church Children's Choir.
The choir consists of members from age five to
fourteen, and perform every second week at the United Church in Victoria, where
they share their beautiful music and voices with the congregation.
This spring, they participated in the Trinity
Conception Music Festival, sponsored by the Kiwanis Club of Carbonear, and won
first place in their category. On
April 2, they performed in a community choir class and received a glowing review
and a mark of 85 per cent. The choir
gave their final performance for this year on Mother's Day and will resume again
in September.
Members of the choir include: Larissa Moores, Macie
Mercer, Erica Butt, Frankie Antle, Kendall Clarke, Ruby Burke, Norah Burke, Leah
Mercer, Dylan Moores, Kelsey Loch, Diego Colbourne, Katie Burke, Erica Evely,
Felicia Jensen, Noah Penney, Mackaila Jenson, Brianna Parsons, Brady Colbourne,
Zackery Colbourne, and Choir Director Kelly Loch.
Mr. Speaker, I ask all hon. members to join me in
recognizing the Victoria United Church Children's Choir and wish them every
success in their future performances.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for the District of Lewisporte.
MR.
VERGE:
Mr.
Speaker, I rise today to recognize the life of an outstanding citizen.
Rowena Earle was born on October 11, 1927 in Point Leamington.
At the age of eleven, Rowena went to Botwood and began
performing household duties for various families.
She later moved to Campbellton, married Stanley Young, and together they
ran two businesses, a restaurant and a taxi service.
The Young's did not have children of their own, so in
1953 at the age of twenty-six, Rowena started to care for foster children.
Through the years, Rowena cared for over forty children in her own home.
Four of those children continued long term, and considered the Young
house as their own family home.
Up until the age of eighty-one, Rowena still
volunteered her time by driving special needs children to their educational
sites as well as continuing to care for two disabled adults.
She was recognized by the Foster Parents Association for her outstanding
service to the children of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Sadly, after many years of giving to others, Rowena recently passed away.
Honourable colleagues, please join with me in paying
tribute to Rowena Young, a remarkable lady with a great big heart.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Humber Valley.
MR.
BALL:
Mr.
Speaker, I rise in this hon. House today to congratulate the Salvation Army
Citadel Corps on its ninetieth anniversary in the Town of Deer Lake.
Just recently I had the opportunity to participate in
the celebration banquet to commemorate this anniversary.
It was an honour to attend this historical milestone event.
The Deer Lake Salvation Army has come a long way since
its beginning in 1924. Three
buildings later, the Salvation Army is still thriving in the community with its
goal of meeting the needs, both spiritually and physically, of those they come
in contact through their thrift store, family services program, and their
community involvement.
In 1959, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip
visited Deer Lake and were greeted by the Salvation Army band.
Mr. Speaker, during the last ninety years, sixty-eight officers have been
stationed in Deer Lake, with present clergy Majors Wayne and Betty Ann Pike in
charge of the corps.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Salvation
Army Deer Lake Citadel Corps on their ninetieth anniversary celebrations.
I commend them on the tremendous work they do and ask all members of this
House to join me in recognizing their special anniversary.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Virginia Waters.
MS
C. BENNETT:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise in this hon. House today to recognize the
friends and family of Dr. Jack Hand who have established the Dr. Jack Hand
Legacy Foundation to commemorate and celebrate his life.
Dr. Jack, as he was referred to by his young patients,
was a compassionate man, full of passion that showed in his life and work.
At the launch event this past Thursday, Jack's never-ending care of the
children and families he served was evident.
From diagnosis to treatment to the best and worst
outcomes, families of the children he treated felt he was right by their side
through it all. His humor, ability,
and compassion were as much a part of a child's recovery from cancer as medicine
itself. He stayed with us every
step of the way, one parent said, when we said good bye, he stood by us.
Dr. Jack Hand passed away in 2012.
As one of his young patients said, Because he was
I am.
Mr. Speaker, I ask all hon. members to join me in
congratulating those involved in the Dr. Jack Hand Foundation, helping families
concentrate on what is most important when a child is being treated for a
hematology- or oncology-related illness.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. Barbe.
MR.
J. BENNETT:
Mr.
Speaker, the blue whale is the largest living creature.
Measuring up to 100 feet and weighing as much as 100 tons, the North
Atlantic population is fewer than 250 individuals.
It was therefore a great loss when nine of these magnificent cetaceans
recently died in the heavy ice conditions of 2014.
One of the bodies came to rest in Trout River harbour,
Gros Morne National Park. Initially
a curiosity, as the carcass bloated, town officials soon realized that the
implications of such a huge animal decomposing in town.
Unable to dispose of it on land, prevented from disposing it at sea, the
town alerted NTV's Don Bradshaw, whose story of the exploding Trout River whale
went viral, even covered by reporters from Al Jazeera.
The Royal Ontario Museum quickly stepped up, salvaging
the whale and another at Rocky Harbour, preserving the specimens for display and
scientific research.
Quick to recognize an opportunity for the town, a group
of seven has mobilized to form the Trout River Blue Whale Corporation to
investigate and pursue long-term economic opportunities that may result from the
unfortunate loss of this magnificent creature.
Let's help them find the silver lining, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Statements by Ministers.
Statements by Ministers
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Education.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today in the House to congratulate Isaac
Bonisteel of New Harbour, a Level II student at Crescent Collegiate, who is this
year's recipient of the Lester B. Pearson Scholarship for Newfoundland and
Labrador.
As you just referenced, Mr. Speaker, Isaac is with us
today in the House. Welcome.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KING:
Mr.
Speaker, Isaac was selected based on his academic achievement, involvement in
co-curricular and extra-curricular activities, and his exceptional volunteerism.
As noted last week by my colleague, the MHA for Bellevue, Isaac, his
family, his teachers, and the entire Crescent Collegiate school community has
every reason to be very proud of Isaac.
Isaac is involved in a wide variety of school and
community activities, Mr. Speaker.
He participates on several school committees, the drama troupe, and in the
school band. Outside of school, he
plays piano, is a member of Allied Youth, a volunteer with Canadian Blood
Services, and much more. He is also
an exceptional athlete, an accomplished runner, and plays soccer on the
provincial under-eighteen team.
Mr. Speaker, this scholarship presents a once in a
lifetime opportunity and will no doubt help Isaac fulfill his long-term goals.
The Lester B. Pearson Scholarship is valued at $80,000 for two years of
pre-university study at Pearson College, a United World College in Victoria, BC.
Of that amount, the Department of Education will contribute $68,000, with
the remainder provided through corporate and community sponsors.
In September, Isaac will join Zoλ Wilkins, a former student at Ascension
Collegiate in Bay Roberts, who was awarded the scholarship last year.
I might add, in a rather interesting twist, Mr.
Speaker, Isaac's sister, Erin, who is here with us today as well, was the winner
of the 2011 Lester B. Pearson Scholarship as well.
Congratulations to Erin.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KING:
Mr.
Speaker, I had the privilege to meet with Isaac, Erin, and his mom, Mary, just
before the House of Assembly. I have
to say, there is no doubt, he is a very strong individual, very deserving of
this. As I said to his mom, I am
sure they are all very proud of both him and Erin.
I want to say congratulations, and invite all members
of this House of Assembly to join in congratulating Erin for her past
achievements, but today is Isaac's day; Isaac, congratulations on behalf of all
of government.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's North.
MR.
KIRBY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the minister for an advance copy of his
statement. On behalf of the Official
Opposition caucus, it gives me great pleasure to extend our congratulations to
Isaac Bonisteel on receiving the Lester B. Pearson Scholarship for Newfoundland
and Labrador.
This scholarship is well sought after through a highly
competitive application process that rewards students with the most exceptional
academic performance and involvement in their communities.
That is why it is so special that Isaac Bonisteel is the third person
from the Trinity Conception Placentia region to receive this scholarship in
the last four years, along with Zoλ Wilkins last year, and Isaac's sister, Erin,
in 2011.
The two-year International Baccalaureate program at
Pearson College is outstanding. It
gives students the opportunity to excel academically, met students and teachers
from around ninety other countries, and promote international understanding and
co-operation. These exemplary
students, Isaac, Zoλ, and Erin are ambassadors for Newfoundland and Labrador and
amongst our best and our brightest.
We wish them all the best but we also hope, Mr.
Speaker, we hope they will return to Newfoundland and Labrador with experience
that benefits, not only their future, but the future of this Province.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and congratulations.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Third Party.
MS
MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the minister for the advance copy of his
statement. I am looking for the
minister and I just found him. We
have had a few changes.
Congratulations to Isaac Bonisteel on receiving this
very prestigious scholarship. The
minister notes Mr. Bonisteel's active involvement in community events.
The arts and athletics are big for him, not just his educational
achievements. I congratulate him on
his hard work, enthusiasm, and dedication.
The minister also notes how proud his family, teachers
and classmates are of his accomplishment, and to that I say they too should be
proud of themselves. Isaac's
accomplishment did not come out of nowhere.
I am sure he would agree that without solid support from his family,
friends, teachers, and the community as a whole, he could not have accomplished
what he has, although we totally understand what he has done as an individual.
So, congratulations to Isaac and also to the wonderful
community that has turned out such successful students in this area.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Today, it is my privilege to stand before this hon.
House and recognize May 12 to May 18 as National Nursing Week.
Currently working in our Province, we have 6,340
registered nurses, the most in our Province's history, and 2,421 licensed
practical nurses. Overall, we have
more registered nurses, licensed practical nurses and nurse practitioners per
population than the Canadian average.
Nurses play integral and valuable roles throughout the
entire health care system. With a
vast array of duties delivered in a number of settings, including long-term care
facilities, emergency departments, to frontline health services in schools and
clinics, nurses are often the first face patients encounter when they enter the
health care system. Nurses also play
an important role in post-secondary education, administration, and research and
policy.
Nurses are leaders in health care.
They are responsible for providing direct care to patients, mentoring new
employees and students, and ensuring that everyone under their care is treated
respectfully.
Mr. Speaker, it is a special kind of person who wants
to care for and help improve the lives of people around them.
Nurses improve the quality of life for many and they help make our
communities a better place in which to live.
To be a nurse is to take on significant responsibilities, and I applaud
every nurse working in our Province who chooses to answer this call.
Our government will continue to work with and support
nurses through new negotiated agreements, ongoing signing bonuses and retention
initiatives, and through our nursing education programs.
Clearly, we see the value and importance of nurses in the delivery of
health care.
Mr. Speaker, I encourage everyone in Newfoundland and
Labrador to recognize National Nursing Week by thanking and recognizing the
efforts of our professional nurses, their tireless work, and their dedication to
patients and families throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Burgeo La Poile.
MR.
A. PARSONS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the minister for an advance copy of his
statement.
On behalf of all my colleagues, I want to commend each
and every nurse in this Province for all that they do.
They play such a valuable role in our health care system, and I doubt
there is one of us in this House who has not had some kind of effect on their
life because of the impact of a nurse.
Again, we thank them for everything they do.
When we talk about nurses and what an important job it
is they do, sometimes their job is made harder because of policy decisions that
are made that they must carry out.
In fact, I had a conversation with some this past weekend when it comes to one
of those decisions. That is cutting
out the nighttime snacks when it comes to patients in acute care.
It is unfortunate, when you see these patients are getting upset again,
snacks are being cut out. It is
nurses who have to go into these rooms and take the flak for decisions such as
this that are being made obviously for budgetary reasons.
Again, it is difficult for a nurse to do their job on
an ordinary basis, but when you have a government decision like this, it
obviously makes it that much more difficult.
In closing, I want to commend the nurses for all their
hard work and dedication each and every day.
They obviously make a significant difference.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Third Party.
MS
MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I, too, thank the minister for the advance copy of his
statement. I also join with him and
with the Opposition House Leader in applauding the excellent nurses in our
Province. They are highly educated,
professional, and so very good at what they do.
Whenever we get complaints as MHAs in our office about
health care, it is never the nurses who people are complaining about.
As a matter of fact, they always point out how wonderful the nurses are.
Rather, it is the system under which they are doing very difficult work.
People praise the nurses themselves, but we know they
are understaffed. One real example
is the ER, and another is long-term care.
If government, Mr. Speaker, really wants to work with and support nurses,
they could revisit the number of nurses assigned to our health care institutions
to correct this understaffing problem.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Oral Questions.
Oral Questions
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Last week the Premier said he would table the many
documents that we have been asking for and looking for on the Humber Valley
Paving. We have yet to see any of
them produced. One of these was the
government's correspondence with Humber Valley Paving last September when the
contract was extended for one year.
I ask the Premier: Will you honour your commitment and
table that correspondence today?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, last week during Question Period I also
made reference to some of the documents that the Opposition had asked for.
I said that I would seek legal counsel as to what could be released here
because there is some commercially-sensitive information there and we are still
going through that process. Once we
get that information we will pass it on to the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Government has also said that Humber Valley Paving was
paid 60 per cent of the contract value for 60 per cent of the work, but has yet
to provide the analysis that shows that 60 per cent of the work was completed.
I ask the Premier: Since you now claim to be open, will
you table the department's analysis of the work of this contract that shows in
fact that 60 per cent was completed?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I tried to detail last Monday here in
Question Period exactly the amount of work that was done.
There is an eighty kilometre stretch of highway that was being
constructed, upgraded, and then blacktop put on that.
Of the eighty kilometres, all of the eighty kilometres has been
constructed, all of the eighty kilometres has been upgraded with Class B and
Class A, and twenty kilometres of the eighty kilometres has been paved.
On top of that, Mr. Speaker, we have also had all of
the guideposts put in place, and all of the guiderails put in place.
We have a professional team in Transportation and Works who goes in our
engineers go in and they analyze how much work is left to do.
That is what the 60 per cent is based on.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We are aware of the minister's response last week.
What we are asking for is since this document exists, will you provide
this information to the people of the Province?
I ask the minister again: Will you table the document
related to the 60 per cent analysis that you just spoke about will you table
that in the House of Assembly?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if the Opposition is
questioning the integrity of the engineers in the Department of Transportation
and Works, but I have full confidence in all of the employees within the
Department of Transportation and Works that they know exactly what they are
doing. Those engineers, they go in
and they analyze exactly how much of the work was done.
In this case they have done that, and that is what was paid out through
the Department of Transportation and Works for this particular project.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well, I am certainly not questioning at all the work
and the integrity of the staff that we have at the Department of Transportation
and Works. They have done good work,
it seems.
I ask the minister: At least just table the analysis
that the minister is referring to will you table it here in this House of
Assembly?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I certainly agree with the Member of the
Opposition that they have done exceptional work here.
I am very pleased with the work they are doing, and they will continue to
do that work.
As you know, the AG is doing a full report on this
particular project and all of that information will be given to the AG.
If he feels he should release that, then by all means.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The minister is well within his rights to table that
document here in the House of Assembly.
I ask the minister: Given the detail that is explained
in this, why would he not table that in the House of Assembly?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, again, as I said, the Auditor General will
be doing a full report on this, and a lot of those papers that we are working on
now are still being completed. If
the Auditor General feels that is necessary, by all means he can release them.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I believe I just heard the minister say that they are
still being completed. We just
mentioned that the analysis is already done.
All we are asking is that the work that is already done, will the
minister table that here in this House of Assembly?
The information about the 60 per cent of the work completed for 60 per
cent of the value, will you put it here in this House of Assembly?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I certainly have no problem tabling that.
As a matter of fact, we tabled it in
The Telegram
about a week-and-a-half ago. All of
that information was tabled in a report in one of
The Weekend Telegrams;
but if the member would like it to be tabled here again, I have no problem
tabling that.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER:
The hon. the Leader of the Official
Opposition.
MR. BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well, I say to the
minister we look forward to that, and yes, he can table that.
The minister stated
that he had his first conversation with the company rep on March 13.
Government cancelled the contract on March 21.
Apparently, the Premier did not hear anything about this until around
April 26, which was about five weeks after the decision was made.
I ask the Premier: Are you saying that cancelling of a
major contract, a major construction contract benefiting the incoming Premier,
was not discussed at all with you or with Cabinet at any point before a decision
was made?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
PREMIER MARSHALL:
Mr.
Speaker, that is correct.
Mr. Speaker, as I said in the House on Thursday, we
were aware that because of the fires, the exceptional circumstances that took
place in Labrador West and Labrador East, that the company had extreme
difficulty and had incurred losses because of those fires.
It could not get its liquid asphalt from the point where it had it to the
site. It was delayed because the
roads were shut down. Then the stuff
had to go back and it hardened, and losses were handled.
We knew the company was going to go after the government in seeking
compensation.
In terms of the resolution of the matter, in terms of a
negotiation of the contract
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
PREMIER MARSHALL:
and in terms of being advised that the contract had in fact been settled by the
release of the company from the contract, it came to me in Halifax Airport on a
Saturday, which I think was April 26.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The minister has confirmed that the contract was
terminated on March 21. Government's
registry of the mechanics' lien says that a claim of lien must be registered
within thirty days of the completion or the abandonment of the work.
In this case, that would have been around April 20.
I ask the Premier: Is that your understanding of how
the mechanics' lien works, that a claim would have been filed before April 20 in
this particular case?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
PREMIER MARSHALL:
Mr.
Speaker, I have not had the pleasure of reading the Mechanics' Lien Act over the
last ten years since I came in here, but I do know that if somebody has done
work on a project, if someone has supplied materials to a project, or if someone
has provided labour to a project, the lien comes into existence at the moment
they do it and the lien continues until they provide their last bit of labour or
their last bit of materials. Then,
it continues. The lien exists and it
continues for thirty days after that date.
Then, you have to file in the Registry of Deeds a claim for lien and give
notice to the other side, then that extends the lien for the period of another
sixty days.
The lien comes into existence automatically.
It expires, if you do not take the action, thirty days after you provide
your last work. If my memory is
still there, I think that is correct.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Last week there was going to be a lesson, I guess, in
mechanics' liens as well as bonds for the Opposition, but I will ask the
minister this question, since you are familiar with the situation that is
ongoing here with Humber Valley Paving and the subcontractors.
My question is about the protection of the
subcontractors: Is it your impression that the last day to actually file a claim
on the mechanics' lien was April 20?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the mechanics' lien works on a
case-by-case basis. Each
subcontractor or supplier that supplies anything to a company, the mechanics'
lien is automatically in place. If
they feel they are not going to be paid their money, they have to within the
thirty days file notice of that and then they can file for an extension.
To the best of our knowledge within the department, when we were
terminating this contract there were no mechanics' liens placed at all or
inquired about.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
What we are trying to establish here is the date that
this mechanics' lien or the opportunity to file against the mechanics' lien
would have terminated.
I ask the minister: Is it your understanding that date
is April 20?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, as I said, it is a case-by-case individual
here. You claim against the
mechanics' lien according to the case.
From the last day you actually do work or have any expenditure towards
the company you are dealing with that is when the mechanics' lien would kick in.
You have thirty days after that, and then you can get an extension of
sixty days. Then, if you are still
not satisfied, you can take legal action.
The advice we would give is that each individual
subcontractor or supplier would deal with their own finances or with their legal
opinions from their counsels.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I understand that it is case by case.
The case we are talking about is the one about Humber Valley Paving.
The minister should know this because he is on record as saying that all
the subcontractors had the opportunity to go seek compensation under the
Mechanics' Lien Act. He also
mentioned about the court challenge, which without the bonds in place there is
not really much they can do there.
I ask the minister one last time: April 20, is that the
date the subcontractors could file against the mechanics' lien or not?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, again I say it is on a case-by-case
individual. When I say case-by-case
individual
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
MCGRATH:
I am talking about the suppliers
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
MCGRATH:
and the contractors. Each supplier
and each contractor, once they are finished the work with the contractor they
were dealing with then they have thirty days.
After that, each individual subcontractor or supplier can get an
extension of sixty days. Then, if
they are still not satisfied, they can seek legal action.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We have asked for a copy of the company's request to
cancel the contract, but government has yet to provide those documents.
I ask the Premier: Will you table a copy of Humber
Valley Paving's request to cancel the contract?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, as I said, there were conversations with
the department. Once we realized we
had two options to go, we had an option to go down the legal route or we had an
option to move forward with this contract.
Then the department got in touch with Humber Valley Paving to see what
could be reached, what negotiations could be reached, and then from the contract
we went into a letter of termination.
We gave them the options we were putting on the table, if they wanted to
mutually terminate this contract, and then we waited for them to get back to us.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Government has claimed they relied on the legal advice,
as the minister just said, before making the decision.
We have asked for a copy of those legal opinions as well, but government
has still not provided them.
I ask the Premier: Will you table a copy of the legal
opinions government received on this file?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
PREMIER MARSHALL:
Mr.
Speaker, as I said Thursday, we are going to have the Auditor General come in
and everything will be given to him for him to do his audit and to do a review.
With respect to other documentation, Mr. Speaker, I
understand there are discussions going on between the lawyers for the company
and the lawyers for the government.
As soon as they are resolved, I will be happy to table in this House the
documentation the Leader of the Opposition has requested.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Well, the minister said the decision to cancel a
contract with Humber Valley Paving was to protect employment of Newfoundlanders
and Labradorians.
Since your government claims to be protecting jobs by
the decision, I ask the minister: How many people were at risk at the time of
the decision, and how many are still working with Humber Valley Paving since the
decision?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I will not speak for how many employees
are working for Humber Valley Paving.
What I will speak to and I think it certainly directs the question from
the Leader of the Opposition is protecting the jobs for Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians. By retendering this
project, then we are going to make sure the project is completed on time, on
budget, and that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will still be employed within
that project.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Official Opposition.
MR.
BALL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Last week it was about protecting employees of Humber
Valley Paving, this week I just noticed that the minister said on this project.
In 2008, when Island Aggregates was in a similar situation as Humber
Valley Paving, government would not help them or provide the protection for
their employees. They said to
interfere in a market driven sector would be a major policy shift for this
government.
I ask the Premier: Does your recent move say that
Humber Valley Paving this is now a significant policy change for your
government?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
PREMIER MARSHALL:
Mr.
Speaker, I am not familiar with that particular fact situation that the hon. the
Leader of the Opposition is referring to.
What I can say is I have heard comments, and the Opposition have heard
comments in the media, concerned about punishing the company.
That happens in criminal law.
You punish, somebody goes to jail, somebody you sanction, and somebody pays a
fine.
This is civil law, this is business law.
What had happened, because of exceptional circumstances, because of the
forest fires that raged, the company had losses, and government's concern was
getting the work done. If a bonding
company had been involved, the odds are that they would have tendered the work
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
PREMIER MARSHALL:
and government has done the same thing.
The minister was concerned about getting the work done to meet the
commitment to people in Labrador, and that is what he did.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the minister said many times that
terminating the contract along with the bonds for Humber Valley Paving was
because the company was losing money and calling the bonds would have put the
company out of business. He also
contends that the forest fires, which closed the Trans-Labrador Highway for a
number of days, was a contributing factor.
I ask the minister: Will he confirm whether or not
government has penalized other contractors in similar circumstances?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to clarify a
comment made by the Leader of the Opposition.
I have always maintained that I wanted to protect the jobs for
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. If
those employees happen to be employees of Humber Valley Paving, so be it as long
as they are Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
That is part of my mandate, to protect those jobs.
Mr. Speaker, what we have done in this particular case
is we have gone out and we have tried to make sure the job was completed.
Whether it was the circumstances of the fire, or everything else put
together, our job is to get the job completed within the department.
That is the decision that we have made, get the job completed, get it
completed on time, and protect the jobs of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I ask the minister: Whether or not government has
penalized other contractors in similar circumstances?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, in the department we deal on a daily basis
with different contracts. Every
contract is dealt with differently.
You look at the circumstances that are put before you.
In this particular case, you had very extenuating
circumstances that were beyond the control of the contractor or the government.
In a case like that we sit down and we try to do what is best for all
included, especially the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.
That is what we did in this case.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Mr.
Speaker, tender 07-13 is a contract for brush cutting and clearing on various
sections of Route 2. Due to
unforeseen circumstances, primarily the early and harsh winter conditions, the
contractor found himself in the same dilemma as Humber Valley Paving.
Even though the contractor requested that the contract be terminated, he
was treated much differently than government treated Humber Valley Paving.
I ask the minister: Why is it that Humber Valley Paving
received preferential treatment while another contractor had his certified
cheque cashed and was banned from bidding any further government work for twelve
months?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, again, I will say that the department
deals with contractors and contracts on a daily basis.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Each contract is dealt with in dealing with the circumstances that are put
before that. I can only speak for
this contract that we are talking about here today, that we looked at the
circumstances, we looked at the best case scenarios; two options, go down the
legal road or go down the road that we went down to get the work done, get it
done on time and on budget. That is
the decision that we made.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Mr.
Speaker, two different contractors, very similar circumstances, two different
ways of treating them.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
OSBORNE:
I
ask the minister: Why was one contractor treated with preferential treatment but
another contractor banned from tendering on any work for twelve months?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, again, I will state that we deal with
every contract on a case-by-case basis.
You look at the circumstances that were put forward, and if you feel
you go a legal road or you go the road we went on this one.
That is what we do. Each case
is dealt with differently.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Mr.
Speaker, the Premier said a few moments ago they do not penalize contractors,
that that is not the business of government.
Clearly, the minister did with this particular contractor on Route 2.
I am asking the minister now: Will he reverse the
decision to ban him from bidding on contracts for twelve months?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, once again, each contract and we deal
with several contracts on a day-to-day basis.
Each contract is dealt with the circumstances that are put forward and
the rationale of why that contractor cannot finish the contract.
We look at that as a department and then we make a decision.
That is what we have done here.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Mr.
Speaker, did the minister get personally involved in the other tender on Route
2, where the contractor was banned from bidding for twelve months on government
contracts?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I notice the way they like to play with
words. The minister is involved in
most everything on a day-to-day basis, and then the minister has a full team of
professionals who I either go to for advice or I advise them to move forward on
how they deal with a contract. Every
contract that could come forward I could be dealing with it, but then you go to
your department officials to move forward with that.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
MS
DEMPSTER:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Late last week we heard about job cuts at College of
the North Atlantic and while some of these job cuts were expected due to last
year's program cuts, some employees are being relocated to other areas of the
Province with only days' notice.
I ask the minister: Why weren't impacted employees
given more notice?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Advanced Education and Skills.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
O'BRIEN:
Mr.
Speaker, all the way through this process in regard to making College of the
North Atlantic responsive to the labour demands of the Province, all of the
instructors knew that some of the low-uptake programs would be cancelled.
They all knew that upfront going through the process.
Certainly, I want to ask the member, too, is she
implying that we should continue to fund low-uptake programs and ignore the
labour market demands of the Province, Mr. Speaker?
I do not understand where she is coming from.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
MS
DEMPSTER:
Mr.
Speaker, my question was about relocation with no notice of employees.
Prospective students of the College of the North
Atlantic should have received their letters of acceptance in April, yet many
have yet to be sent out.
I ask the minister: Is this delay due to program cuts
at the College; and if so, why are the announcements on cuts being made at the
eleventh hour?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Advanced Education and Skills.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
O'BRIEN:
Mr.
Speaker, these are not cuts and announcements being made at the eleventh hour,
as the hon. member implies. These
are things we have been talking about for many months now in regard to CNA being
responsive to the needs of the Province and the labour market demands of the
Province. We will be introducing new
programs in different colleges right around the Province.
As a matter of fact, there will be more employed tomorrow once those
programs are instated or started than before we discontinued the low-uptake
programs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Third Party.
MS
MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
We have been told that the opening of the new
Hoyles-Escasoni long-term care facility will provide sixty-seven extra long-term
care beds.
I ask the Minister of Health and Community Services:
How many people are currently on the wait-list for these beds?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank the Leader of the Third Party for her question.
Long-term care is a very important matter for the Department of Health
and Community Services, and I know it is also very important for the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador. One of
the signature, or very important significant projects we are conducting is the
construction of a new long-term care facility in the east end of St. John's.
It will have 461 new beds for long-term care for Eastern Health.
It is a significant investment by this government, a significant piece of
work, and we look forward to the opening of that new facility in the coming
months.
Mr. Speaker, wait-lists change from day to day.
While we acknowledge there are wait-lists for people for long-term care,
there are a variety of programs we try to avail of to look after the needs of
the people of the Province.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Third Party.
MS
MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I note the minister did not answer my question.
Since the figures we have are a couple of months old and it takes us more
than a month to get up to date, I ask him to table in this House the up-to-date
figures on wait-lists.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I pointed out to this government years ago that our
aging demographic would result in an increased demand for personal care home and
long-term care beds.
I ask the minister: Why didn't the government make
adequate plans when they had the choice?
Because I can assure him, they do not have enough beds for the wait-list.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
As I acknowledged, there is a wait-list and a demand
for service. We have an aging
population in Newfoundland and Labrador and we recognize that.
In fact, as a government we are taking great steps.
We are building, as I mentioned, a new significant piece of
infrastructure in the east part of St. John's, a new long-term care facility.
It will have 461 beds. We are
building a new one in Carbonear with 228 beds.
We are adding capacity to Labrador City; we are adding capacity to Happy
Valley-Goose Bay. We are adding
capacity to smaller areas such as Bonavista, Clarenville.
We are adding capacity as well in Burin.
Mr. Speaker, I can tell you, we have made significant
investments for people who need long-term services in Newfoundland and Labrador
and we will continue to make those investments.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Third Party.
MS
MICHAEL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
So the minister is acknowledging we have a looming
crisis, really. The need is getting
greater. I would like to see the
plan, Mr. Speaker, with details of how they are going to make sure the
wait-lists end.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I remember as a fairly new MHA, when I first came to
this House of Assembly, there was a significant piece of work being underway by
the Department of Health and Community Services surrounding long-term care and
the needs of our aging population.
It is a strategy that was released in 2012, Mr. Speaker.
It is available on our Web site.
I can provide her with a hard copy and documentation if she would like to
have it as well. It was a good piece
of work. It is a foundation of the
plans for this government for us to move forward and deal with the needs of
long-term care in Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Leader of the Third Party.
MS
MICHAEL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I have read that document and it does not have the
details I am asking for.
Mr. Speaker, we are told of a senior moved from his
community in St. John's to a personal care home in Long Pond, out of reach of
family members who are as old as he is, and community support.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MS
MICHAEL:
I
ask the minister: What work is being done by the department to ensure that
vulnerable patients are not isolated from family and community support?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
DAVIS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I do not want to focus on any individual case and I do
not feel it to be appropriate to talk about any individual circumstances that
may face any Newfoundlander or Labradorian and discuss those on a personal level
here in the House of Assembly.
I would advise the member opposite, if she ever took
the drive from Confederation Building to Long Pond, as my friend opposite here
can tell you, he does it every day, sometimes several times a day, it takes him
about sixteen minutes to do it, Mr. Speaker.
It is not a lengthy drive and it is part of the metropolitan, greater St.
John's area, I say to the member opposite.
Mr. Speaker, as I said, we made significant investments
for the people of this Province. We
have made significant investments in health, and particularly for the needs of
our aging population. We are making
great strides in doing that, and we will continue to do so.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's East.
MR.
MURPHY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Some residents of Deer Lake are deeply concerned with
the rising water table and constantly flooding properties.
They believe that there is a fault with the Deer Lake Power Canal that
diverts water along the affected area that is
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
MURPHY:
leading to severe mould problems for some and flooding properties to other
residents.
Does the government know about the problem, and what
are they doing to address this?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KENT:
Mr.
Speaker, the member spoke to me on Thursday, I believe.
He sent me an e-mail. We had
a conversation in this very House where I confirmed for him I was looking into
the matter.
Not only that, Mr. Speaker, I had a meeting with the
Town of Deer Lake council on Friday and their staff, discussed the issue,
confirmed that it is indeed a municipal issue that the town is well aware of,
and the town is in regular communications with the residents that are affected.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's East.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MURPHY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
While some consider this to be a municipal matter, this
may require a lot of money for the municipality to fix it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
MURPHY:
Will government step in with assistance to both the municipality as well as the
residents there to investigate the Deer Lake Power Canal situation?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KENT:
Mr.
Speaker, I had a productive discussion with the members of Deer Lake council on
a number of issues on Friday when I was there to make a capital works
announcement. On this particular
issue, given that I had correspondence with the member, had a conversation with
him about it hours later in this very House of Assembly, I had a discussion with
the town council
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
KENT:
the town council acknowledged the issue and said that if residents have concerns
that they wish to discuss, then Mayor Ball and members of that council are more
than prepared to continue the dialogue with those residents.
The questioning today is rather surprising given the
conversations I had with the member on Thursday.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's East, for a quick question.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
MURPHY:
Mr.
Speaker, I would like to know if they are communicating with the residents.
I keep getting e-mails, including this morning, from residents who are
concerned. They are not hearing a
word. I wonder when they are going
to talk to the residents there about this situation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Municipal and
Intergovernmental Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KENT:
I
would encourage the Member for St. John's East to give Mayor Ball a call.
I am sure he would be happy to answer his questions.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Yes, the time for Question Period has expired.
Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees.
Tabling of Documents.
Notices of Motion.
Notices of Motion
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Virginia Waters.
MS
C. BENNETT:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I give notice of the following private member's
resolution moved by me, the Member for Virginia Waters:
WHEREAS Newfoundland and Labrador communities face very
real challenges due to population decline and population aging; and
WHEREAS the Province can no longer rely on employment
alone to successfully compete and attract and retain skilled workers needed for
growth in a global environment; and
WHEREAS the significant economic, social, and cultural
contributions of newcomers to our Province are well recognized; and
WHEREAS international migrants, including immigrants,
temporary workers, and international students will continue to play an
increasingly important role in helping to sustain and grow a diverse and
prosperous future; and
WHEREAS Newfoundland and Labrador has among the lowest
newcomer attraction and retention rates in the country;
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly
urge government to implement a worker recruitment and protection act similar to
Nova Scotia and Manitoba, which would require an employer registration process
as well as a licensing requirement for companies and individuals recruiting
foreign workers.
This is seconded by the Member for The Straits White
Bay North.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Opposition House Leader.
MR.
A. PARSONS:
Pursuant to Standing Order 63.(3), the private member's resolution just entered
by the Member for Virginia Waters is the one to be debated on Wednesday.
Thank you.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Further notices of motion?
Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given.
Petitions.
Petitions
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's North.
MR.
KIRBY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled, the petition of the
undersigned residents of Newfoundland and Labrador humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS provincial funding and support for an
arms'-length advocacy group is needed in order to promote, protect, and ensure
full citizenship rights for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians with disabilities;
and
WHEREAS the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities
(COD-NL) has advocated for persons with disabilities in Newfoundland and
Labrador for nearly thirty-five years; and
WHEREAS people with disabilities across the Province
rely on COD-NL to navigate and access support services, educate the public, and
provide outreach; and
WHEREAS long-term sustainable funding for COD-NL should
be a key building block in the Province's strategy for the inclusion of persons
with disabilities; and
WHEREAS federal and provincial funding cuts continue to
threaten COD-NL's capacity to provide important advocacy, public education, and
outreach activities;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly
pray and call upon the House of Assembly to urge government to reinstate funding
cut from the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities Newfoundland and Labrador in
2013 and provide a long-term sustainable funding arrangement for COD-NL.
As in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, this is a petition I presented previously
in the House of Assembly and it looks like this one has residents of the
Province entirely from the community of Peterview.
We have received petitions from members of the public from all across the
Island.
I would like to point out, Mr. Speaker, that this
Wednesday, May 14, at 7:00 p.m. in the great, historic District of St. John's
North, the annual general meeting of the Coalition of Persons with Disabilities
Newfoundland and Labrador is taking place at the Fairfield Inn & Suites on
Kenmount Road. That is this
Wednesday, May 14, at 7:00 p.m. I
have had the great privilege of attending that AGM since I was elected to the
House of Assembly and I have certainly run into other members on both sides of
the House there.
I do note that the first year prior to the funding cut
to COD-NL, there were full-page advertisements in there from the former Premier
of the Province, from the former Minister of Advanced Education and Skills, and
even the member whose district their office was located in at the time, all
congratulating COD-NL for their great work, their advocacy, and so on and so
forth. Then before the dust had
settled on all of those congratulations, the funding was cut from the
organization. They were struggling
to survive and find even a place to keep their files and have a telephone.
So I encourage government to reconsider that decision.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
KIRBY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace.
MR.
SLADE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled, the petition of the
undersigned residents humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS the communities of New Ferolle, Shoal Cove
West, and Reefs Harbour have always relied on the fishery as a means to earn a
sustainable income; and
WHEREAS the main employer for these three communities
has been a seafood processing plant located in New Ferolle; and
WHEREAS this plant was seized by the Government of
Newfoundland and Labrador as a result of mortgage arrears; and
WHEREAS the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
then permitted an outside operator to operate the plant, but that operator
became insolvent and closed; and
WHEREAS the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
then sold the plant to another operator for the sum of $1 and has not operated
the plant but instead has stripped most, if not all, of the equipment from the
plant instead of operating it;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly
pray and call upon the House of Assembly to urge the Government of Newfoundland
and Labrador to find a local operator for this plant so that people can go back
to work.
As in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, I brought this petition here once before
and I am bring it back here again now.
Basically, what the people in that area would like is to go to work.
I call upon government, of course, to try to get an operator for that
plant in New Ferolle. The people
over there deserve it.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's East.
MR.
MURPHY:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled, the petition of the
undersigned residents humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS consumers and businesses in Newfoundland and
Labrador pay some of the highest automobile insurance rates in the country; and
WHEREAS part of the recent increases in automobile
insurance rates is due to uninsured automobile coverage, which could increase by
329.3 per cent in 2014 for taxis and limousines insured by the Facility
Association; and
WHEREAS consumers may see an increase in taxi fares and
limousine rates as a result; and
WHEREAS consumers insured by the Facility Association
could see their own auto insurance rates increase partly due to uninsured
drivers;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly
pray and call upon the House of Assembly to urge government to establish a
procedure for insurance companies to co-ordinate with police, highway
enforcements officers, and the Motor Registration Division to remove unlicensed
and uninsured vehicles from our Province's highways.
As in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, I went to a meeting of taxi drivers, I
think, it was some three weeks ago now who are really quite concerned about what
is happening with their insurance rates.
Mr. Speaker, the proposal going before the Public
Utilities Board right now, the third-party liability increase they are asking
for right now is 50 per cent for the Facility Association in a residual market.
For accident benefits, we are talking about 294.3 per cent or an extra
$235 to a driver, and for an uninsured automobile, 329.3 per cent.
Mr. Speaker, these increases that are proposed and gone
before the Public Utilities Board are, in one word, outrageous.
We are at risk as consumers ourselves of being tagged with the
possibility of increases particularly for uninsured automobile coverage.
We know every day in the news we are hearing about it,
that police are hauling in various vehicles that are unregistered and finding in
some cases that these are uninsured.
The unregistered part I can see, where there is a way for Motor Vehicle
Registration to co-ordinate with the police; it is the uninsured part that we
are talking about here when we are talking about uninsured vehicles.
We have a possibility here that we can get good
co-operation from the insurance companies to co-ordinate this.
I know in conversations with my own insurance company and with other
insurance companies on the outside they are not required under the law to report
that to Motor Vehicle Registration.
So the question here being asked by taxi drivers particularly is if the
uninsured question can be addressed here by government and co-ordination brought
on part between government and the various justice officials, then obviously
that part of their insurance rates would not be impacted.
Mr. Speaker, I leave that to the House of Assembly to
determine. I am told that I am going
to be getting a few of these petitions in the next couple of weeks, so I will
stand and talk about high insurance rates as they deal commercially when it
comes to taxis and limousines but not only that as well to the consumer in
general.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Mount Pearl South.
MR.
LANE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled, the petition of the
undersigned residents humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS there are extreme overcrowding issues in St.
Peter's Elementary and Mount Pearl Senior High, a direct result of poor planning
by the Department of Education; and
WHEREAS the solution imposed by the English School
Board to deal with this now crisis situation will have a devastating impact on
many students, families and teachers in Mount Pearl Senior High, Mount Pearl
Intermediate, St. Peter's Elementary and Newton Elementary; and
WHEREAS there are other less disruptive solutions which
can be introduced to alleviate this overcrowding issue including capital
investment as a preferred option as well catchment area realignment.
WHEREAS the school board was not provided with the
financial flexibility by the Minister of Education to explore other more
suitable options;
WHEREAS the government has intervened in board
decisions in the past such as in 2005 when Bishop Falls, reversing the closure
of the Leo Burke Academy during a by-election, I might add;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly
pray and call upon the House of Assembly to urge the Government of Newfoundland
and Labrador to intervene in this matter, commit appropriate resources to the
English School Board, and instruct them to develop more suitable options.
As in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, this is one petition I have, of many, and
there are many more coming in. I
actually had a message from a parent in my district this morning who has several
of them signed. This issue is not
going away. We have a situation in
Mount Pearl where as a result of neglect over the years by the school board
the then Eastern School District there was poor planning, and we saw all the
specialty spaces at St. Peter's Elementary, all the specialty spaces at Mount
Pearl Senior High, get chopped up into classroom space as the population grew.
Now we are to a point where both of those schools have
all their specialty spaces gone. We
have kids, for example, at St. Peter's Elementary who are eating lunch at their
desks while they are doing gym class and music in the cafeteria.
They have lost their resource library, they have lost their computer
room, and the solution being brought forth is not going to change that.
As a matter of fact, next year that same problem will still exist at St.
Peter's, and now they are talking about chopping up Newtown Elementary and
losing some of their specialty space as well.
Mr. Speaker, this was a poor decision, and it was
brought upon by the fact that government did not provide any financial
flexibility to the board to make these decisions.
Certainly, we are calling upon the government to have a change of heart,
to provide that opportunity for the school board to come up with more suitable
options for our students.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
MS
DEMPSTER:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled the petition of the
undersigned humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS most communities in the District of Cartwright
L'Anse au Clair do not have adequate broadband service; and
WHEREAS residents, businesses, students, nurses, and
teachers rely heavily on the Internet to conduct their work and cannot afford to
wait until 2016 to access a potential plan in partnership with the Muskrat Falls
development; and
WHEREAS there are a number of world-class tourism sites
in the region, including a UNESCO site at Red Bay, Battle Harbour Historic Site,
and the Mealy Mountains National Park;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly
pray and call upon the House of Assembly to urge the Government of Newfoundland
and Labrador to work with the appropriate agencies to provide adequate broadband
service to the communities along the Labrador Coast.
As in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, I will continue to bring this petition
forward. It is a huge issue; it
crosses many sectors in the district.
It is really stunting the growth in many ways; 95 per cent of the
Province we know is connected, but of the 5 per cent that is not, that includes
an awful lot of my district. I am
still asking for a list of where the 5 per cent of communities are that are not
connected. I still have not seen
that list, Mr. Speaker.
Tourism is huge.
We are just coming into the tourism season.
We are in a technological age.
People go into a region now and they expect to be able to stay in contact
with people, and for many it is even doing business on the road.
More importantly than that, yes, we need the tourism,
we need whatever ways we can to generate revenue into rural areas, Mr. Speaker,
but there are things that we could be doing in health care.
People should be able to sit in front of Skype now and see their
specialist here in St. John's and save money if that infrastructure was there.
We spend a lot of money trying to entice professionals
into the community, many who want to continue their studies through distance
education but basic things like streamlining and because of the ten
communities that we say have Internet are actually maxed out, have exceeded
capacity so this prohibits them.
Businesses not able to do something like use a simple Interac debit machine
without putting their own booster on.
Mr. Speaker, I heard from hotels last week that are
missing business because they are not able to get on and reply back to e-mail of
tour groups that want to come into the region and want to stay with them.
It is a very, very serious issue, one that is certainly negatively
impacting my area. I will continue
to stand and lobby for this service.
We cannot wait until 2016, until two years.
We want to know what is the interim plan, what is being done right now.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Burgeo La Poile.
MR.
A. PARSONS:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I have a petition to the hon. House of Assembly of the
Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in Parliament assembled, the petition of
the undersigned residents humbly sheweth:
WHEREAS the residents of Burgeo, Ramea, Grey River, and
Franηois of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador must use Route 480 on a
regular basis for work, medical, educational, and social reasons; and
WHEREAS Route 480 is in deplorable condition, such that
the shoulders of the road continuously wash away and there are huge potholes in
the road; and
WHEREAS the condition of Route 480 poses a safety
hazard to residents and visitors to Burgeo, Ramea, Grey River, and Franηois; and
WHEREAS the Department of Transportation and Works is
responsible for the maintenance and repairs in the Province; and
WHEREAS the local division of the Department of
Transportation and Works does make periodic repairs to this route but these
repairs are only temporary patchwork and this road needs to be resurfaced;
WHEREUPON the undersigned, your petitioners, humbly
pray and call upon the House of Assembly to urge the Government of Newfoundland
and Labrador to support the users of Route 480 in their request to have Route
480 resurfaced.
As in duty bound, your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, I was just going to stand up today and
talk about the state of this road because it has been in a deplorable condition
for some time. Yesterday we had a
very serious situation when we had another washout on this road.
The road closed and people were not able to get back and forth.
We had people who were looking to get out of town so
they could go and have surgeries. I
actually heard from people who work for the ambulance service calling and
concerned about what could happen. I
had seniors calling me. This is
beyond the usual calls you get from people whose vehicles have been damaged and
have to pay for the cost because this road is not fit.
The good news here is the local employees of Transportation and Works
attended to it and got the situation taken care of so that people could go back
and forth.
We are still speaking on a greater level.
When it comes to these decisions that are being made, this road is not
fit. It is in a deplorable
condition, yet there is absolutely nothing getting done besides the usual
patchwork. People keep sending me
pictures of their cars taking terrible damage.
Again, they are being left to hold the bag because there is no money
going into this district. I guess it
is just located in the wrong spot.
I am putting it out there.
There are a lot of people who have to travel over this road.
People have to take a ferry to get there in many cases, if they are
coming from Franηois, if they are coming from Ramea, or if they are coming from
Grey River. When you get up there
and you cannot get back and forth.
This is the second washout, the second summer, and we are still seeing the same
thing. People are not getting the
same quality of roads that they should as elsewhere.
I am going to continue to make this an issue.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
As per Standing Order 32, I move, seconded by the
Minister of Environment and Conservation, that we move to Orders of the Day.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
has been moved and seconded that we now move to Orders of the Day.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion Carried.
Orders of the Day.
Orders of the Day
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
First of all, I move, as pursuant to Standing Order 11,
seconded by the Minister of Child, Youth and Family Services, that the House not
adjourn at 5:30 today, Monday, May 12, 2014.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
has been moved and seconded that this House do not adjourn today, Monday, May
12, at 5:30 p.m.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Just for clarity, I understood I probably should do
them as two motions that is why I split them up.
I move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Minister of
Fisheries and Aquaculture, pursuant to Standing Order 11 that the House not
adjourn at 10:00 p.m. today, Monday, May 12, 2014.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
has been moved and seconded that this House do not adjourn at 10:00 p.m. this
evening, Monday, May 12.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Now, I am going to move to item 10 on our Order Paper.
I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment and
Conservation, for the following resolution:
WHEREAS subsection 20(7) of the House of Assembly
Accountability, Integrity and Administration Act provides that a change to the
level of amounts of allowances and resources provided to members not be made
except in accordance with a rule that has been first laid before the House of
Assembly and adopted by resolution of the House; and
WHEREAS an amendment to the Members' Resources and
Allowances Rules, which would change the level of the amounts of allowances and
resources has been laid before the House by the Speaker;
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House of
Assembly adopt the amendment to the Members' Resources and Allowances Rules, as
approved by the Management Commission of this House on April 14, 2014 and tabled
by the Speaker of the House on May 8, 2014.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
members have heard the motion.
The hon. the Government House Leader, speaking to the
motion?
MR.
KING:
Yes, Mr. Speaker.
I think, with leave, I am speaking quickly for both of
the Opposition parties just to provide a very quick explanation here.
The Members Resources' Rules were amended a short while ago by this House
unanimously. It came to our
attention that there was a typographical error with respect to two particular
districts, the one for Lake Melville and Labrador West.
The motion we are bringing forward today simply fixes the error and
honours the intent of the motion that members of this House voted on several
weeks ago.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
members have heard the motion.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Under Motions, I am moving to Motion 5.
Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of
Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs, to ask leave to introduce a bill
entitled, An Act To Establish And Implement A Province-Wide 911 Telephone
Service For The Reporting Of Emergencies, Bill 14, and so move that the bill be
now read the first time.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of Municipal and
Intergovernmental Affairs shall have leave to introduce a bill, An Act To
Establish And Implement A Province-Wide 911 Telephone Service For The Reporting
Of Emergencies, Bill 14, and that the said bill be now read a first time.
Is it the pleasure of the House that the minister shall
have leave to introduce Bill 14, and that the said bill be now read a first
time?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
Motion, the hon. the Minister of Municipal and
Intergovernmental Affairs to introduce a bill, An Act To Establish And
Implement A Province-Wide 911 Telephone Service For The Reporting Of
Emergencies, carried. (Bill 14).
CLERK:
A bill, An Act To Establish And Implement A Province-Wide 911 Telephone Service
For The Reporting Of Emergencies.
(Bill 14)
MR.
SPEAKER:
This bill has now been read a first time.
When shall the bill be read a second time?
MR.
KING:
Tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
On
tomorrow.
On motion, Bill 14 read a first time, ordered read a
second time on tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I move, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education
and Skills, to ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, An Act To Amend The
Student Financial Assistance Act, Bill 16, and that the said bill be now read
the first time.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of Advanced Education and
Skills shall have leave to introduce a bill, An Act To Amend The Student
Financial Assistance Act, Bill 16, and that the said bill be now read a first
time.
Is it the pleasure of the House that the minister shall
have leave to introduce such bill?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
Motion, the hon. the Minister of Advanced Education and
Skills to introduce a bill, An Act To Amend The Student Financial Assistance
Act, carried. (Bill 16)
CLERK:
A
bill, An Act To Amend The Student Financial Assistance Act.
(Bill 16)
MR.
SPEAKER:
This bill has now been read a first time.
When shall the bill be read a second time?
MR.
KING:
Tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
On
tomorrow.
On motion, Bill 16 read a first time, ordered read a
second time on tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I move, seconded by the Minister of Child, Youth and
Family Services, for leave to introduce a bill entitled, An Act To Amend The
Revenue Administration Act And The Tax Agreement Act, 2010, Bill 17, and that
the said bill be now read a first time.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of Finance and President of
Treasury Board shall have leave to introduce a bill, An Act To Amend The Revenue
Administration Act And The Tax Agreement Act, 2010, Bill 17, and the said bill
be now read a first time.
Is it the pleasure of the House that the minister shall
leave to introduce Bill 17?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance and President
of Treasury Board to introduce a bill, An Act To Amend The Revenue
Administration Act And The Tax Agreement Act, 2010, carried.
(Bill 17)
CLERK:
A
bill, An Act To Amend The Revenue Administration Act And The Tax Agreement Act,
2010. (Bill 17)
MR.
SPEAKER:
This bill has now been read a first time.
When shall the bill be read a second time?
On tomorrow.
On motion, Bill 17 read a first time, ordered read a
second time on tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I move, seconded by the Minister of Fisheries and
Aquaculture, to ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, An Act To Amend The Fish
Processing Licensing Board Act, Bill 18, and that the said bill be now read the
first time.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
is moved and seconded that the hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture
shall have leave to introduce a bill, An Act To Amend The Fish Processing
Licensing Board Act, Bill 18, and that the said bill be now read a first time.
Is it the pleasure of the House that the minister shall
have leave to introduce Bill 18?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
Motion, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries and
Aquaculture to introduce a bill, An Act To Amend The Fish Processing Licensing
Board Act, carried. (Bill 18)
CLERK:
A
bill, An Act To Amend The Fish Processing Licensing Board Act.
(Bill 18)
MR.
SPEAKER:
This bill has now been read a first time.
When shall the bill be read a second time?
On tomorrow.
On motion, Bill 18 read a first time, ordered read a
second time on tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
At this time I call under Second Reading Bills, Order
4, second reading of a bill, An Act Respecting Public Interest Disclosure, Bill
1.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Virginia Waters.
MS
C. BENNETT:
Mr.
Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in this House to speak to Bill 1,
seven years in the making, and certainly exciting for the people of the Province
to finally see this legislation on the books here at the House of Assembly.
The provincial government promised to create this
legislation to protect employees who want to report what they consider
wrongdoing. That promise came after
a 2007 review of the Province's Legislature by Justice Derek Green, and the
promise came before the 2007 provincial election.
In his report from the review, Green recommended a law under which public
servants, without fear of reprisal, could disclose others' improper or unethical
behaviour.
In the 2008 Throne Speech, government committed to
introduce the whistleblower protection legislation that same year, after
appropriate consultation had taken place.
In 2009, former Premier Danny Williams reiterated his government's
position and promised to create the legislation.
In May, 2012, Justice Minister Felix Collins said there
were problems with the legislation elsewhere, the Province had looked.
He also said he believed
the existing legislative regime in
Newfoundland and Labrador may provide adequate protections for government
workers. My question to the
minister today, Mr. Speaker, would be, why has it taken seven years for us to
get to this point where this legislation is going to be enacted?
As recently as last Monday, I have had a situation
where I had an individual seek counsel from me as an MHA on a circumstance
related to their employment and are concerned as to how they might go about
resolving that. While this
whistleblower legislation, assuming it comes into effect in July, would have
applicability to this individual, certainly based on the dates and the lack of
clarity around situations prior to July of 2014, this individual does not have
clarity. We have seven years where
individuals who have worked for the provincial government in a variety of ways
do not have clarity on how they can provide feedback, concerns, and questions in
a way that does not put them at risk of retaliation.
The bill itself has four basic problems.
There is no internal review process.
There is lack of proactive disclosure. The
release of documents to authorities in the past the Office of the Citizens'
Rep has denied under certain circumstances those documents being released in the
past, which has made circumstances difficult to be resolved.
The biggest question from my perspective comes down to
the issue of the dates and the fact that this legislation promised seven years
ago really will have little effect on feedback, concerns, questions, information
that may need to be discussed, may want to be discussed over the last number of
years. It would seem to me, and
appear to me, that if this government had been serious about the whistleblower
legislation when they announced it years ago, they certainly would have been
making sure they were acting in a principled way, providing an opportunity for
employees to give feedback where appropriate.
I think the dates in particular provide some concern to
government employees who may feel that the dates do not allow them to go back
under a certain period of time and talk about things.
Whether it is in a certain department, whether it is a conversation they
were part of, that they do not really know what to do with.
The fact that there is no internal process does not allow the individual
to be able to go to their direct supervisor, their direct boss, or somebody who
has the authority and should have the authority inside government in the
management team to be able to deal with the situation that the employee brings.
This is quite the contrary to what I have seen in the
private sector, and certainly it would require a more open process to allow
internal resolutions to happen on a more eased basis.
If you are an employee who works outside of a driving distance from the
Office of the Citizens' Rep, certainly phone conversations are much more
difficult to have if you are looking and seeking advice then it would be to have
a face-to-face conversation. This
legislation certainly makes it difficult for individuals to have a face-to-face
conversation at a time when it is important, a time of undue stress on an
individual and an employee.
The issue that was spoken about in this House last week
around retrospective versus retroactive I think is a very meaningful one.
I am at a loss to understand, as I said earlier, why a government that
committed to people, promised to people this legislation, would feel the need or
feel it was in its own best interest not to implement legislation that allowed
for everything that needed to be disclosed by employees to be disclosed prior to
the implementation of this legislation.
That the simple act of changing the language and allowing retrospective
to be used, it would have certainly enabled those employees to make that change.
We also have a number of areas in the act that I
believe need to be reviewed.
Certainly, making sure we have dual remedy and internal complaints investigation
is one area where there is an opportunity to improve the bill.
The whistleblower should be protected from reprisals when they are making
good faith complaints internally, as well as going to the Citizens' Rep.
An individual who speaks to their direct manager, their direct support,
whoever is providing coaching and counselling and feedback to that individual
should feel comfortable speaking to their direct supervisor.
I ask the question: Is there a need to amend the
regulation section to give authority to set up an internal complaints review
system? Wrongdoings to which the act
applies this bill may need to be amended to apply to wrongdoings that occur
subsequent to October 9, 2007, not the day the act comes into force, as per
section 4.(2).
When you think about the list of exemptions and things
that are not applicable around Cabinet confidences that are exempt to access,
whether it is Cabinet records; memorandums; discussion papers; agendas; minutes;
records used; records created by a minister; record created during the process
of developing and preparing a submission to Cabinet; discontinued Cabinet
records; official Cabinet records; supporting Cabinet records; discounted
Cabinet records. All of these items
certainly exclude a significant area of work that public sector employees work
in and provide an opportunity, if you had a situation where we had dual
reporting processes, you could certainly look at situations where somebody could
report to their direct supervisor possibly around some of these particular areas
that have been exempt.
When an investigation is not required and the terms of
when an investigation is not required, there may be a need to add certain
conditions for when an investigation is not required in the act.
This would include things like the alleged person who committed a
wrongdoing is deceased, resides outside of Newfoundland and Labrador, or is in
such a mental condition as to be unable to respond in a meaningful manner;
subject matter may also have been otherwise heard or adjudicated by another
public body or, at the time of the disclosure, before another public body was
empowered to hear a rule on the alleged wrongdoing.
So there are some requirement to make some adjustments there, I believe.
When an investigation is not required might also
include that if criminal activity is reliably alleged, the Citizens'
Representative shall refer the matter to the appropriate police force for
further investigation, without disclosing the name of the whistleblower, unless
the disclosure is found to be erroneous or made in bad faith.
Again, I refer to the date of July of this year, when
we have situations, as I mentioned earlier, that I am dealing with in my office
right now of an individual who has concerns and questions and is at a loss as to
how to resolve those through an internal process, because there is not one that
is available, or now the external process is not available to them until
post-July. Certainly, it is very
concerning and frustrating and does not inspire confidence for this particular
individual in this government's desire to act in good faith under the
whistleblower legislation.
There is reference in the act around the annual report.
As the bill now says, an annual report must be tabled within fifteen
days; however, if the House closes before the fifteen days of being received by
the Speaker, within eight, for example, it must be tabled before the House
closes. If the report is completed
and provided to the Speaker between the two sessions, it must be tabled within
three days of opening. That
certainly is a concern based on the history that this House has had in the last
number of years around when the House closes, and there could be a situation
where the reports would not be available to be reviewed.
One of the things that Justice Green, if you go back to
his report, certainly made clear is that he felt the information needed to be
disclosed in the House of Assembly in a way that allowed those people who were
elected by the people of the Province to act in the best interests of the people
of the Province. He wanted those
discussions to happen here and I would assume the same would happen around
discussions in this annual report.
Protections of the employee: Somewhere in the bill is
this the best place there must be sanctions against individuals who are guilty
of taking a reprisal against a former employee.
New Brunswick has made this recommendation and by doing this it shows
reprisals will not be tolerated. One
of the certainly challenging things for an individual who steps forward bravely
to talk about a potential wrongdoing, concern, or conflict they feel is how do
we protect that individual, not only from reprisals from their boss or their
direct report, but also from their peers?
That legislation and recommendation that has been changed in New
Brunswick certainly is worthwhile for us to take a look at.
Complaints to the Labour Relations Board: The
organization that employs the person found guilty of the offence at the time of
the offence was found to have been committed is deemed to be liable for the
wrongdoings of the offender and shall be jointly and severally liable of such
wrongdoings, as well as any penalties imposed or remedies ordered.
Certainly those changes would ensure that the right person pays for the
infraction, for the misjudgement, for the situation that was not handled in the
best interests of the people of the Province and in the best interests of
government.
This particular piece of legislation, the minister has
said, is based on four pillars: employees may disclose serious wrongdoings, the
Office of the Citizens' Representative would be involved, there will be
anti-reprisal protection, and the Labour Relations Board will hear complaints
and award remedies. Again, I go back to
my comment earlier about no internal process.
It seems quite inconsistent with how a best-in-class organization would
want to operate, assuming that is what this government wants to operate in its
employee relations, is a situation where you have a lack of a mechanism inside
government that allows for an internal disclosure process.
Many of these situations that arise can be handled internally, assuming
that you have good discipline, good systems, and good communication amongst
management and front-line staff that allow for those discussions to happen.
When you take those discussions out and you force them
into a third party, then you restrict the employee's ability to have an open and
frank discussion with their managers.
You also limit and restrict the manager's ability to act in good faith on
what might be a small infraction that could be handled quickly, efficiently, and
in the best interest of the people of the Province.
I would ask the minister if he could provide clarity on
how, in the absence of an internal process, employees and managers will be
functioning together when there are situations that need to be handled on a
timely basis, and how taking those situations outside of a normal work
discussion into the Office of the Citizens' Rep, which may be required, how that
will improve employee productivity and help improve situations where things can
be resolved in short order.
There is a need for continued discussion and dialogue
on this particular bill. It has been
a pleasure to rise here today and speak to it.
I think the act and the discussions we have had over
the last number of days around this, certainly some key themes would include
concern about why a date of July. As
government has said, they are an open government now, one that is operating in
the best interests of the people of the Province.
It would seem to me that if that was a commitment they wanted to make
that they would back this up with a commitment under the whistleblower, which
they promised in 2007.
With that said, I thank, Mr. Speaker, for the time.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Harbour Main.
MR.
HEDDERSON:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am very pleased to be on my feet today to talk about
I believe looking around that I might have got up a bit prematurely.
I am looking down the row at the member.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
Go
for it.
MR.
HEDDERSON:
I
am looking at the minister and the minister says: Go for it.
I apologize to the member for Bonavista down there.
Mr. Speaker, I am so anxious to stand up and talk about
Bill 1, a bill regarding Public Interest Disclosure and Whistleblower Protection
Act. This is a bill that has been in
the making for a fair amount of time.
When you look at Bill 1, in any session, you look at it as an important
initiative that the government feels quite serious about, obviously, to name it
as Bill 1, and to see that it is the right time to do the right thing and to put
forward a significant piece of legislation.
Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to be able to get up and
have some words on what I believe to be a very solid bill.
I commend the minister for putting together a great deal of research and
comparative analysis to bring forward a bill that I would say will stand the
test of any complaints; complaints from the Opposition, complaints from the
Third Party, complaints from outside parties as well.
These complaints are very necessary in a debate, Mr. Speaker.
I am sure the minister is listening attentively as the speakers on both
sides of the House get up and talk about this particular bill.
I will say, Mr. Speaker, this is a case where
government has certainly listened to the people of the Province on an issue that
is very important to them. It is not
something that was taken lightly because whistleblower legislation even though
it is, I believe, in six or seven jurisdictions, it is relatively new.
By doing some good comparative analysis, hopefully we, as a jurisdiction,
will not go down a road that some others have gone down and run into significant
difficulties.
Mr. Speaker, significant difficulties with
whistleblowing means that individuals who came forward were not given the
protection they thought they would get.
So, as a government, you want to make sure that what probably happened in
some other jurisdictions is not going to happen in this jurisdiction, because of
the seriousness of the nature and the intent of what this bill is putting
forward.
Again, Mr. Speaker, any time is a good time to do the
right thing. We said as a government
that we would do this legislation, and, Mr. Speaker, I am standing here as part
of a government that is moving forward with it.
From what I am hearing from across the way, especially from the Third
Party, there are a lot of good things they see in this legislation, one they
have anticipated for a period of time and very hopeful that this bill will take
care of the intent.
Mr. Speaker, what is the bill?
The bill talks about an independent mechanism for the disclosure and
investigation of wrongdoings in or relating to the public service and protect
employees who make the disclosures from reprisals.
That is always the danger.
You see a wrongdoing and you have to judge for yourself whether you want to put
yourself on the line so to speak. In
many cases you are putting yourself on the line with regard to employment.
You are working in a particular area with a particular
group of people and you have to make the judgement as to whether or not you are
going to be the one who would bring forward some type of wrongdoing, knowing
full well that you are probably going to have to suffer some reprisals for doing
so. It is not as simple as saying:
No, that is not going to happen. It
is the right thing to do. It is
about justice and so on and so forth; because, as all of you know in this
Chamber, this is Newfoundland and Labrador and, believe it or not, a very closed
community in a lot of ways.
Even within government departments, in the larger
government, a lot of people know each other and if there is a wrongdoing in some
of these units or some of these offices, it will become quite obvious.
Even though you say you can protect, I think it would be quite obvious to
who might be the one who is bringing forth that disclosure.
So it is very, very important that we have tight legislation which makes
sure everything is done, everything that is possible is done so the identity of
that individual is not known.
I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that is going to be a
tough job, a very tough job. I am
satisfied that this legislation is going as far as it possibly can but it is not
as simple as black and white. Again,
we must, as a Chamber, look at all aspects of this bill and make sure it is what
we think it would be.
Now, the scope and the scope is line departments or
public bodies. That is what this is
all about. As a government, we have
an obligation to protect the employees who fall under our jurisdiction, our
responsibility. Of course, you would
hope that we are doing what we believe is the right thing for our employees and
you would hope in private business they would look at having similar mechanisms
as we do in government.
We also know, for example, that Memorial University
does have really robust whistleblower protection.
We are satisfied everything has been done in that academic community
because it is a little bit unique, as we as a Province are unique.
When you have an academic community, that too lends itself to making sure
you are doing the right thing, because you have a closed community, and a large
community, when you look at Memorial University.
Having said that, there is always an opportunity for
that public body to avail of this legislation.
At some future date, if something is brought to the attention of
government or to Memorial, that their protection does not match up with what has
been legislated, we hope, in this particular bill.
The scope is our line departments, our public bodies.
The intent is to uphold the integrity of the public service.
I have been around government now for, going on any number of years and
have been very much involved in at least six departments.
MR.
JOYCE:
(Inaudible).
MR.
HEDDERSON:
I
look at the Member for Bay of Islands, I am not saying I am here too long, but I
am here long enough to have had some great experience with some of the
departments. I am sure he is nodding
as well, in saying that I have met some tremendous individuals who are dedicated
to public service in Newfoundland and Labrador, who are intent on making a
career out of it. Whether it is in
Transportation and Works, whether it is in Intergovernmental Affairs, in any
number of departments that I was there.
The integrity of the public service is so, so
important. We must as a government,
as a Chamber here, do everything we can to uphold that integrity.
The way to do it is to make sure the people who work in government or any
associated bodies, that we give them the protection and the opportunity to make
sure that they feel very, very comfortable and protected as they would move
forward with what I believe to be very, very difficult decision makings and
judgements. That is to look at
wrongdoing within your department, for example, and go forward.
The pillars have been mentioned, and every bill has to
be based on strong principles. The
first one, and the most important one, is disclosure without fear.
That is sort of all right for me to stand here and say to the public
employees out there that this bill is going to allow you to go forward without
fear. I am in a real world, and I
know that if the decision is made to go forward with disclosure, regardless of
what kind of protection we have in this bill, there will be apprehension, and
there will be someone who perhaps feels uncomfortable.
The principle is that we have to do everything that we can in legislation
to allow for that employee to make the right decision, not only to make the
right decision but to do it in a manner which allows him or her to be able to
move forward.
The second pillar I like the aspect of the
independent investigation. I fear I
differ. I know the member who stood
just before me on the Opposition talked about the two aspects: the internal as
opposed to the external. I think the
seriousness of this particular disclosure calls for complete independence.
I know that there are some cells, some units, within
government where you would have a half-a-dozen people and it is very, very
difficult for one of those six, for example, or one of those four, or one of
those seven who have worked together very closely perhaps for a period of time
it is so difficult for an employee to just turn around and go to one of them, in
many cases, what they consider to be their family and talk about a particular
wrongdoing of a third party or of the party themselves.
That is why we are introducing this.
If it is anything less serious, I am sure that they could probably work
it out amongst themselves.
This calls for an independent where you can step out of
where you are, go to a place where you are going to get total independence,
assessment, advice and so on and so forth.
That is most important because of the seriousness of the nature of this
wrongdoing.
It is not going to be a trivial thing, I can tell you
that, as someone who sees something they need.
This one stream or this one mechanism, that is where I would be.
I think in other jurisdictions they found that would be the best route to
go. Not only that, but that
independent mechanism is our Citizens' Representative.
I have already heard that gentleman talk about how they
are prepared for this, how they are looking forward to this, how they do have
right now, they feel, the resources to deal with this.
What better place and what better office to deal with this very, very
sensitive matter of an employee within a certain unit or department talking
about some wrongdoing that they have witnessed that they need to have addressed?
Thirdly and let's be honest; as much as you have the
independence of the Office of the Citizens' Representative, as your outside the
work situation, there is an investigation that takes place.
Let's be honest if you look at the numbers that are used, a small section
here, a small section there, it might become quite obvious and, in many cases,
it will of who the whistleblower is.
Once that happens then, just by the very fact that
there is knowledge of it there may be in some indirect or direct reprisals
against that individual. It is all
right to say that we will protect you, but we cannot give 100 per cent
guarantee; nobody can. If the
identity becomes obvious, there may be individuals or an individual who within
that work unit will look for reprisals.
It might be a look. It might
be some verbal communications that would suggest abuse.
It is also very important, if that is there, the pillar
is if that happens there is somewhere else that the individual can go for
further protection. Of course, you
have to look for a second independent body, and the labour council would be
again an independent body who knows how to deal with labour-related matters, as
this would be, and could address the necessary compensation, action plan or
whatever that is required to allow this individual, this public servant, as
someone who has talked, who had the courage, because it is going to take
courage. I do not care what it is, I
do not care what type of wrongdoing or whatever, it takes a lot of courage for
somebody to stand up and say: This is not right.
The labour council can then, as an independent body, assess the situation
and make sure what is necessary to be done is indeed done.
Of course, Opposition parties and government parties,
no matter who we are or on what side of the House, guess what?
It always comes down to the details.
That is where we have to look.
I like the detailed part of it because there is a single disclosure
process that eliminates cumbersome administration and paper trail.
You have one independent office dealing with this, and from what it is to
where it should go. Basically, it
eliminates that discomfort and that apprehension an employee might have in
having to go to their supervisor, their director, or whoever.
I like, again, the independent body in the Office of the Citizens'
Representative as well as the Labour Relations Board.
I think there are seven provinces and the feds who have
this legislation in place. I think
we, as a government, have done enough of the comparative analysis to know what
is best for this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Is it exactly the same as all other jurisdictions?
No, and I would not want to be, I say, Mr. Speaker I would not want it
to be.
Our population is not a great population of
500,000-plus people, but I believe we as a government have done a good job in
making sure we are as a jurisdiction doing this, but secondly that we are taking
the best we have seen across this Nation, federally and provincially, and
incorporated it into a bill. I
believe we have cut the cloth to fit the job.
We are focused on wrongdoing, not routine operational
or HR matters. That is obvious, I
think. When you are dealing with HR,
we have unions and so on, and we have this, that, and the other thing, but we
are focused where we did. As I
already pointed out, MUN is exempted because we believe their program takes care
of it. We do know that Cabinet
confidence is again protected, that hallmark of democracy that obviously allows
our Cabinet to function in a democratic manner in which they should.
The accountability I know some are questioning the accountability.
When I look at the Speaker and the Chair and know that this Legislature
has mechanisms that would insist on reports being brought in and made public in
the most opportune way, I am very, very comfortable.
Mr. Speaker, in closing, I certainly am very supportive
of this bill. I know that both
Opposition Parties believe in the principles that we are putting forth.
I would encourage them to continue to bring forth their concerns.
Because in the end, we want, as we do with all of our legislation, it to
be the best in not only this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, but we as a
government would want it to be the best in the country.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
HEDDERSON:
I
believe, Mr. Speaker, we set the table and it is up to us here in this
Legislature now to go forward with what I believe to be a very important
initiative from this government. We
have listened and we have acted.
Here is Bill 1; take it as it is.
Thank you very much.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER (Verge):
I recognize the hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any argument from
anybody on either side of this House that whistleblower legislation is needed.
It is a long time in the making.
It was promised several years ago by government and I think everybody
will be happy to see the day that whistleblower legislation is finally brought
into effect. There are some concerns
with it and I will get into that, but I will say that whistleblower legislation
is certainly a long time in the making and long overdue.
After years of waiting, we finally see the legislation
brought to the House of Assembly.
There has been some debate and I think some very good suggestions by members on
this side of the House on how this legislation can be improved.
Public servants have wanted this for a long time, Mr.
Speaker. I know in 2007 House of
Assembly employees were protected under similar legislation or clauses as a
result of Justice Green's report, but public servants have wanted this
particular legislation for some time.
Public servants know that there is wrongdoing from time to time within
government, either at the departmental level or politically and they want to see
an ability to be able to inform the public of when a wrongdoing is taking place.
If that had happened, Mr. Speaker, maybe what happened
back in the early 2000s where we needed to see Justice Green come in and make
the changes here in the House of Assembly, maybe that would not have happened.
Because there were bureaucrats who obviously understood and saw that
there was some wrongdoing and that needed to be corrected.
So, it is needed. Public
servants now want the same protections and the same rights that certain members
of the staff of the House of Assembly currently have.
I do have some questions, and I know that based on this
legislation we are going to potentially see an increased workload for the Office
of the Citizens' Representative, but we do not see any increase in the budget in
the Office of the Citizens' Representative for an anticipated increase in
workload. If there is work referred
to the Office of the Citizens' Representative, is that going to be covered under
a special warrant? It will have to
be. We will have to bring a special
warrant to this House to cover any additional work that their office cannot
afford to undertake because they have seen no increase in this year's budget.
That is one example, and I know that we are still
deliberating and debating the Budget, Mr. Speaker, but it is certainly one
example where we could see an improvement to this legislation by means of
increasing the budget for the Office of the Citizens' Representative.
The act comes into force on July 1, Mr. Speaker.
So, clearly, what you have is April 1 is the new fiscal year, you have
all of April, all of May and all of June that the Office of the Citizens'
Representative would not see an increase in work; but as of July 1, you have
nine more months that the Office of the Citizens' Representative could
potentially see an increase in workload.
Mr. Speaker, if a member of the public service were to
blow the whistle to the media, for example, rather than making a written
complaint to the Office of the Citizens' Representative, would they be
protected? I am not clear under this
legislation. In fact, I do not think
they would under this legislation.
It does not specifically outline that, but I do not think they would be
protected under this particular piece of legislation if they were to speak with
the media.
So is that something intentionally that the legislation
has left out? Are we trying to
discourage members of the public service from speaking to the media if there is
a wrongdoing? Do we want them
specifically to go in writing to the Office of the Citizens' Representative?
Mr. Speaker, the Citizens' Representative is not
required to investigate complaints that are considered frivolous or vexatious,
and they say that such complaints could damage the reputation of those being
named. So, safeguards will be needed
to ensure that reputations are not damaged unnecessarily.
If somebody has a beef with a manager, a director, a
deputy minister, or a minister, for that matter, they could make a frivolous
complaint to the Office of the Citizens' Representative.
We do need to ensure that if such a complaint is made, that those who are
in positions of authority are protected, if it is proven and if it can be shown
that is a frivolous complaint, that the reputation of somebody is not damaged
simply because somebody has a beef with them.
We need to look at the legislation and we need to ensure that the
legislation is a little bit stronger in those regards to ensure that we do
encourage people to come forward, we do encourage people to make the complaint
if they see a wrongdoing, but we also need to ensure that people are protected
against frivolous complaints or vexatious complaints.
Mr. Speaker, clause 4 of the act only applies to
wrongdoings that occur after July 1 of 2014.
What about issues that happen prior to July 1, 2014?
I will give you a prime example; we are talking now about Humber Valley
Paving. I am not going to say that I
have evidence that could be brought forward, but that is something that has been
hotly debated back and forth across this House.
There are different opinions on that particular issue, so it is a fine
example. If this legislation comes
into force, it comes into force July 1.
Something such as Humber Valley Paving, if a public servant is aware that
there is a wrongdoing with that cannot come forward with it.
There are other cases, Mr. Speaker, where public
servants would not be able to come forward if they have a concern or a complaint
of a wrongdoing that happened within government prior to the July 1, 2014.
What about ongoing issues and events that have taken place prior to?
It does not protect anyone who makes a complaint about something that
happened prior to July 1, 2014.
I think that is a weakness in the bill.
I think that is somewhere that we could look at improving this bill, Mr.
Speaker. I would say that we should
look at putting in place going back to when the legislation was promised,
ensuring that as of the time the legislation was promised, people have the
ability to come forward and say that something happened, something went wrong
within government. We should amend
that, Mr. Speaker. The act should
also apply to any reports of wrongdoing which take place after this comes into
force. We do not provide any post
facto blanket amnesty for events that happened prior to.
Mr. Speaker, under clause 8, disclosures must be
signed. There is no provision for a
valid anonymous disclosure or complaint.
While I understand to a certain degree the need for that, at the same
time, on the same token, the other side of it, there is perhaps at times a need
for an anonymous complaint because of somebody's connection to the person they
are complaining about within a department or the sensitivity involved.
I would say that is something that should be looked at, whether or not it
was overlooked. I think we should
look at and maybe put in clauses that would say under certain conditions an
anonymous complaint may be made.
The identity of an employee making a disclosure
under the current legislation that is being proposed shall be kept
confidential to the extent permitted by law and consistent with the need to
conduct a proper investigation.
There is no absolute guarantee of anonymity.
That is the concern with what I am raising, the fact that there should be
certain cases, certain conditions clearly outlined where an anonymous complaint
can also be made.
Mr. Speaker, you look at solicitor-client privilege
here, the act authorizes the disclosure of information or documents that are
protected by solicitor-client privilege.
There is a concern here as well.
It provides a very broad protection and exemption of text reviewed by
government lawyers giving what I would call blanket protection to legal
documents covered under solicitor-client privilege.
Therefore, the same problem as Bill 29 and associated rulings where we
see under Bill 29 there are certain things protected because government consider
them to be client-solicitor protected.
Under clause 14(2) An investigation shall and this
is an important word, shall be conducted as informally and expeditiously as
possible. Essentially, the
legislation forces investigations to be conducted informally; it could perhaps
weaken an investigation because it is an informal investigation.
It does not permit any other option to require the investigation to be a
little more formal, shall we say.
There will be lots of unrecorded conversations if it is informal; no evidence to
put forward should something be found to be truly wrong and the complaint that
was brought forward substantiated. I
am not sure if I am comfortable with the fact that they should be conducted as
informally as possible, leaving no paper trail at all in the event that a
complaint is deemed to be a very legitimate complaint.
Mr. Speaker, clause 15, the Office of the Citizens'
Representative might refer the matter to another agency, if that agency is
deemed to be more appropriate; for example, the Commissioner for Legislative
Standards, if it relates to a member of the House or a minister.
Depending on what the Office of the Citizens' Representative deem to be
appropriate, they may refer that to the Commissioner for Legislative Standards.
Again, we do not see any increase in the budget or
funding for the office of the commissioner's interest or legislative standards.
If a complaint were referred there, depending on the magnitude of the
complaint, the level of investigation that would need to be carried out, the
type of work that would need to be done, there would have to be an increase in
the budget for the Commissioner for Legislative Standards, but there is nothing
here.
Mr. Speaker, the Office of the Citizens' Representative
merely makes recommendations in this report.
Those recommendations would go to a department or to the deputy, or to
the person involved. If nothing is
done, they merely make another report; send off another report to the same
individual. So, I have to wonder
whether or not the act lacks teeth in that regard.
There seems to be no consequences for a public body or
an individual if the Office of the Citizens' Representative makes a
recommendation and that recommendation is not carried through.
If there is no action on that recommendation, we see nothing done as a
result, what happens then? There are
no provisions laid out in this legislation to identify what the next steps are.
Mr. Speaker, clause 19, When making recommendations,
the citizens' representative may request again, may as opposed to shall
the appropriate department or public body to notify him or her, within a
specified period of time, of the steps it has taken or proposes to take to give
effect to the recommendations. The
concern here is the fact that they may.
This really, in my opinion, should be shall, because if they may request
the appropriate department or public body to report back, that does not mean
they have to. It does not even mean
the Office of the Citizens' Rep has to make that request.
I think there are some areas of this that could be
strengthened. We all like the fact
that there is whistleblower legislation.
It is something the people of the Province have been looking for, that
the public service have been looking for, that members of the House have been
looking for, and it is something that was promised, Mr. Speaker, several years
ago.
I do not think you are going to get any complaints on
the fact that this legislation is on the table, but there are some areas in this
legislation where there are concerns, there are weaknesses in the legislation,
and we would certainly like to see that legislation improved, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you very much.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
LITTLE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am delighted to rise in the House today to speak to
Bill 1, this very important piece of legislation.
I have listened to some of my colleagues speaking to Bill 1 and how
important this piece of legislation ties into the workplaces and employees
within the workplace.
This government is very serious about Bill 1.
We recognize how important Bill 1 is to the workers of Newfoundland and
Labrador.
In relation to some of the comments made from some of
the members on the opposite side, they realize how important this piece of
legislation is as well. It looks
like we all feel the same way. That
a piece of legislation like this Bill 1 is certainly going to make a difference
in relation to employees and how they feel about actually bringing forward a
concern in the future.
This legislation represents a great step forward
towards increased openness and transparency in government by ensuring that those
who work in the public service can freely report legitimate wrongdoing or gross
mismanagement of taxpayers' dollars, misuse of government assets or other types
of serious and significant wrongdoing that could be occurring within our public
service.
I am going to speak about other jurisdictions in
Canada, places where whistleblower legislation has been brought forward, Mr.
Speaker, and how it ties into what we are doing in this Province of Newfoundland
and Labrador. An employee can feel
free to make these types of referrals under this act without fear of reprisal.
When I was part of the briefing, I picked up some very key points in
relation to this piece of important legislation.
I would like to commend the department officials from Justice and
Municipal Affairs in doing an outstanding job and giving us a great briefing so
we can come to this House of Assembly and speak on this very important piece of
legislation, Bill 1.
I would like to take this opportunity to highlight the
experience of other jurisdictions in Canada and how this legislation compares.
Newfoundland and Labrador will be the seventh Province to introduce
whistleblower protection legislation as currently Nova Scotia, New Brunswick,
Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta, as well as the Government of
Canada has such legislation in place.
We are not the first, and yes, we did take a little bit
more time. Also, by taking more
time, we can make changes on behalf of the workers and the workplaces of
Newfoundland and Labrador to make improvements, Mr. Speaker.
That is what we are intending to do with this piece of legislation.
This bill largely echoes many of the major provisions
found in the legislation of other provinces, like I said, but we believe it has
improved on the very important aspect of this type of legislation.
Mr. Speaker, in consulting with other provincial colleagues across the
country, we have determined that Newfoundland and Labrador's whistleblower
legislation will be differentiated from all other provinces by the existence of
a single disclosure route. The use
of such a method means that all complaints of wrongdoing are solely reported to
and investigated by the Citizens' Representative.
The difference is significant, Mr. Speaker, as our
provincial colleagues advised us that the commonly used dual disclosure route
represents two key challenges.
First, the dual disclosure route requires the investment of a significant amount
of time and financial resources, particularly with regard to ensuring
consistency across all departments and public bodies and the provision of
ongoing training to employees tasked with receiving and investigating
disclosures. Secondly, the public
service employees may be unwilling or hesitant to disclose information regarding
wrongdoing to a supervisor or chief executive without assurance of protection.
Mr. Speaker, it is for these reasons that the
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has decided to use a single disclosure
route to the independent Citizens' Representative so that employees in the
public service may freely report legitimate concerns of wrongdoing, in keeping
with the act, without fear of reprisal and receive clear and consistent guidance
when they do so. In addition to
this, Mr. Speaker, the Citizens' Representative and the employees of that office
are already well trained in such matters, thereby limiting any additional
financial burden on the Province and this is an issue that the Opposition
highlighted in relation to the cost and so forth.
With regard to the definition of wrongdoing, the
legislation is the same as that of other jurisdictions in Canada.
Within the proposed bill, a wrongdoing is considered to include any act
or omission that is considered an offence under provincial or federal law
regulations; an act or omission that creates a danger to the life, health,
safety of a person or to the health and safety of the environment that may be
considered outside the dangerous characteristic of their job; gross
mismanagement, particularly of taxpayers' dollars and public assets; advising
someone to commit a wrongdoing as outlined in the act.
Mr. Speaker, the types of discipline to be administered
to an employee who has committed a wrongdoing as outlined in this bill is
similar to that of most of other provinces in Canada that have this type of
legislation. An employee who is
found to have committed wrongdoing is subject to disciplinary action, such as
termination of employment as well as any additional legal punishments.
Again, with respect to what is required when a person makes a disclosure
under this legislation, the content of that disclosure is similar to
jurisdictions all across Canada. In
that disclosure there must be a written proposal, include a description of
wrongdoing, include the name of the person alleged to have committed or to be
about to commit the wrongdoing, reinforce the date it occurred, and indicate
whether the information was previously disclosed and a response received.
Mr. Speaker, another important feature of Bill 1 is
that it not only authorizes the Citizens' Representative to provide advice to
accept disclosures and discuss the conduct of the investigation, but it also
allows him or her to facilitate resolution of matters informally.
This is another aspect of this legislation where we are aligned with the
other jurisdictions and by taking more time to actually evaluate and consult
with other jurisdictions, this allowed improvement to this piece of legislation
that is very important to us all in this Province.
We feel it is very important to allow for informal
resolution mechanisms while at the same time ensuring that the formal procedures
exists. By allowing this
flexibility, the Citizens' Representative can make the determination as to how
best to proceed in these matters.
Mr. Speaker, provinces with this type of legislation
use various entities to consider complaints related to reprisals.
This proposed bill will designate and empower the Labour Relations Board
as the entity to handle such complaints here in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador.
Some provinces such as the provinces I mentioned
earlier, and in particular Alberta and Saskatchewan, investigate reprisal
complaints similar to disclosures; however, in Newfoundland and Labrador, the
Labour Relations Board possesses numerous tools to rectify complaints and,
therefore, offers the most appropriate means for dealing with reprisal
complaints.
Mr. Speaker, I have highlighted just a few of the main
components of this very important bill so as to demonstrate that we are not only
building upon that which has been established in other provinces, but we are
also being innovative in our single disclosure process.
I listened to the member earlier, the Minister of
Municipal Affairs and who is responsible for this legislation.
I listened to some of the answers and comments that he made and I am
delighted to be able to stand in this House and speak to this bill, such an
important bill, and support this bill.
A bill that will go down in history as an important bill to all workers,
to the Labour Relations Board, to employers, and to work sites all over
Newfoundland and Labrador.
We believe, as a government, that we proposed a strong
legislative framework for public interest disclosure and whistleblower
protection for the employees within the public service of Newfoundland and
Labrador.
The act contributes to increased accountability and
integrity within the public service at a minimal cost and ensures that the
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador continues to work towards being more
open and transparent. This
government has definitely listened to the people of the Province of Newfoundland
and Labrador in relation to this very important bill and how we should introduce
the bill and include legislative framework that is very important to the work
sites in Newfoundland and Labrador.
I would like to take a minute just elaborate a little
bit more in relation to the Labour Relations Board and how it ties into the
legislative framework of Bill 1 that is being discussed in the House of Assembly
as we speak, Mr. Speaker. Like I
said, it is a delight to be able to get up and have a discussion on this very
important bill, Bill 1. Some of my
colleagues on the other side are actually shaking their heads and agreeing that
this whistleblower legislation is very important, and I definitely agree.
I agree and it is encouraging.
I will continue to speak on important pieces of legislation like this in
the future as it ties into the Province and how important the type of work and
commitment this government is actually doing on behalf of the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
LITTLE:
I
am certainly delighted, Mr. Speaker, to be part of a government who listens to
the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, will continue to listen to the people
of Newfoundland and Labrador, to be able to bring in whistleblower legislation
at a time in our history, and to know that this legislation is an improvement in
relation to what legislation has been brought in, in other provinces than
Newfoundland and Labrador. I am
certainly proud to be able to stand in the House and make that comment, and this
government will continue, like I said, to listen to the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador.
This bill vests significant authority and
responsibility in two key independent offices: the Office of the Citizens'
Representative and the Labour Relations Board.
Successful impartial implementation of this legislation is being largely
placed within the mandates of these entities.
Mr. Speaker, this translates into key accountabilities for each of these
offices and we have faith and trust that they have the skills and abilities to
effectively implement this legislation.
The Office of the Citizens' Representative is well
positioned to provide advice, accept disclosures, and investigate wrongdoing
within the public service as outlined in Bill 1.
The office already provides a Province-wide Ombudsman service on behalf
of the citizens of this great Province.
The office was established back in 2002 and is an independent office of
this House.
Mr. Speaker, the primary work of the Citizens'
Representative is to accept complaints from citizens who feel they have been
treated unfairly with respect to their contact with government offices and
agencies. The Citizens'
Representative and his or her staff mediate citizens' complaints where informal
mediation is not possible. The
office can undertake an impartial and unbiased investigation, and this is
important an impartial and unbiased investigation.
This act will provide for the Office of the Citizens'
Representative to act as the single independent body which will accept
disclosures and investigate wrongdoings in the public service.
The office will be given the power and the responsibility to conduct this
work consistent with the powers and authorities contained in the Citizens'
Representative Act, which is already in fruition.
Mr. Speaker, the House of Assembly Accountability,
Integrity and Administration Act already names the Citizens' Representative as
the investigator for public interest disclosures related to the House of
Assembly. Therefore, the office is
currently responsible for a role similar to that in the proposed Bill 1
legislation and is well positioned to take on this broader role.
The Citizens' Representative and the staff of that
office have been in contact with other jurisdictions as well to ensure they stay
on top of trends and best practices across the country as they carry out their
work related to public interest of the House of Assembly in Newfoundland and
Labrador. Mr. Speaker, it is very
important that we provide legislation like Bill 1 to the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador.
I would like to conclude.
My time is up. I can speak on
this bill for another probably sixty minutes or so, but time is up.
I commend my colleagues on this side of the House for taking such great
leadership.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I recognize the hon. the Member for Carbonear Harbour
Grace.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SLADE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It indeed gives me a great pleasure to stand here today
on Bill 1, the Public Interest Disclosure and Whistleblower Protection Act.
Mr. Speaker, this piece of legislation that Danny Williams promised in
the 2008 Throne Speech to bring in during his term in office, but that promise
was broken. That promise came after
a 2007 review of the Province's Legislature by Justice Derek Green.
In his review report, Green recommended a law under which public servants
without fear of reprisal, [could] disclose others' improper or unethical
behaviour.
Former Premier Williams promised at a campaign stop in
Carbonear on October 6, 2007, Williams pledged that his government would
implement whistleblower laws in the first session of the legislature after the
election. We'll get that on at the
very earliest opportunity'. This is
what was said, The very first session of the House that we have, that's
something we'll have a look at.
MR.
LANE:
Seven years ago.
MR.
SLADE:
Seven years ago, Mr. Speaker, I might add.
Of course, we have called for this legislation numerous
times, as well as NAPE, but the same government members who sit here today
supported Justice Minister Felix Collins when he said: it will not be enacted
until we are perfectly comfortable that we have the best piece of legislation
moving forward that we can get.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I remind the hon. member that it is unparliamentary to
refer to sitting members of the House by their full, proper name.
You can refer to them by their district or their portfolio that they
hold.
The hon. the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace.
MR.
SLADE:
Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I do apologize, indeed.
Mr. Speaker, it took seven years to implement this
piece of legislation. It is long,
long overdue. Mr. Speaker, we are
looking at this in a very favourable light.
I am sure there are some changes, some tweaking on it I am sure needs to
be done.
Mr. Speaker, the only thing about it, and I have to say
this, is this piece of legislation looks an awful lot like the whistleblower
legislation in New Brunswick. So, I
am kind of concerned about that part of it.
Mr. Speaker, government's inactions on this were
condemned by a group call FAIR, Federal Accountability Initiative for Reform,
which promotes integrity and accountability within governments across Canada.
So, again, it is about making people accountable.
We are certainly glad to see that part coming across here.
If I may, the overview of the legislation, there are
four pillars. Employees may disclose
a serious or significant wrongdoing without fear or threat of reprisal.
The Office of the Citizens' Representative will have power and authority
to receive and investigate allegations of wrongdoing and publicly report
findings. Three: anti-reprisal
protection for employees who disclose wrongdoings.
Four: the Labour Relations Board to hear complaints and award remedies
including reinstatement for reprisals against whistleblowers.
Now, Mr. Speaker, at no point in time should anybody
who sees something of a wrongdoing, should have anything said to them or
anything else. How are you going to
get people to come forward if they are not allowed to do just that.
As I said, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador is
the seventh Province to enact whistleblower legislation.
This is following Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, New
Brunswick, and Nova Scotia.
Mr. Speaker, I would just like to add to that note.
The Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, there are wonderful people in
this Province. We have some of the
smartest people around, who sit around these tables in this House.
I do not understand; why can't we as the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador - why can't we be leaders instead of followers?
That is what I would like to add.
We have so much talent in the Province.
The Member for Harbour Main is over there having a
little crack at me, Mr. Speaker, but I am pretty tough and durable.
Since I came here I have a skin on me as thick as an alligator.
I would just like to say that, Mr. Speaker.
Whistleblower, why is it important?
Many public service scandals have come to light in Canada over the past
several years. A few notable
examples are: the tainted blood scandal in which 60,000 Canadians were infected
with Hepatitis C, many of them fatally; the gun registry scandal, in which the
program with a budget of $2 million spent $1 billion without authorization or
reporting of the cost overruns. I
could go on and on. Any time, like I
said, this kind of stuff goes on, the public has a right to know and it would be
great for this to be recognized.
Mr. Speaker, if one were to blow the whistle to the
media, for example, rather than make a written complaint to OCR, would they be
protected? It seems not.
Is this the way to control people speaking out?
People have to be given that protection.
Of course, with this bill, Bill 1, it does exactly that: it gives them
somewhat protection.
When I went over to look on clause 8, disclosure must
be signed. I take note on the bottom
part of this, there is still no guarantee of anonymity.
That concerns me a little bit.
When people are prepared to come out of their comfort zone and to do the
whistleblowing, at all points in time they have to be protected, Mr. Speaker.
It is just not right.
Mr. Speaker, there is nothing in this act that
authorizes the disclosure of information or documents which would disclose the
deliberations of Executive Council or a committee of Executive Council, or
information on documents that are protected by solicitor-client privilege.
You cannot disclose deliberations of Cabinet.
Justice staff indicated this is not quite the same as Cabinet confidence.
Can the minister flesh out how deliberations of the
Executive Council differ from Cabinet confidence?
It has to be well defined on exactly what this piece of legislation does
and how they deal with the different issues after this bill gets Royal Assent.
I am sure every issue would not be taken care of in that bill.
Mr. Speaker, OCR merely makes recommendations in the
report, and if nothing is done, they make another report.
There seems to be no teeth to the legislation; there seem to be no
consequences for a public body that does not act on recommendations made by OCR.
Again, what I have just reflected on is they are going to have to make
sure, of course, that each and every scenario is addressed to make this bill
something really worthy, and make the people in the Province of Newfoundland and
Labrador very proud that they have this bill.
Mr. Speaker, in clause 19, When making
recommendations, the citizen' representative may request the appropriate
department or public body to notify him or her, within a specified time, of the
steps it has taken or proposes to take to give effect to the recommendations.
Maybe there is some wording that needs to be tightened up in this bill
instead, like say shall. It is just
small things, but it is important things to people who are going to be out
there. At all points in time, we
have to make sure they are always protected.
Mr. Speaker, administration and the effective date
the Minister Responsible for the Office of Public Engagement will administer the
act with any regulations. The act
will come into force July 1, 2014.
It applies to employees in the public service, government departments, and
public bodies such as Crown corporations, school boards, Workers Compensation,
and CNA. I take note that MUN is not
included in the act since it is covered by its own whistleblower legislation,
which is fine.
Mr. Speaker, if we are to put some teeth into what we
are doing here, I think probably that it would have to go back.
This is only from this period on.
If you took it and moved it back to when it was first talked about, I
think it would be a much, much better piece of legislation than it would be
right now under that piece of information there.
Mr. Speaker, I am just going to go on another little
bit. To provide a mechanism for the
disclosure and investigation of wrongdoings in or relating to the public service
that an employee believes may be unlawful, dangerous to the public or injurious
to the public interest; and to protect those persons who make those disclosures
from reprisal. The act is not
intended to deal with routine operational or human resources personnel matters.
I can probably understand that part of it, Mr. Speaker.
Wrongdoing is a definition consistent with other
jurisdictions: an act or omission constituting an offence under the act of the
Parliament of Canada; an act or omission that creates a substantial and specific
danger to life, health or safety or persons, or to the environment, other than a
danger that is inherent in the performance of the duties and function of the
employee; gross mismanagement, inclusive of public funds or a public asset;
knowingly directing or counselling a person to commit a wrongdoing, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the public body means and when I go to
this, there needs to be some clarity put to it, a corporation, the ownership of
which or a majority of the shares of which is vested in the Crown, Nalcor or
Hydro corporation, a corporation, commission or body, the majority of the
members
are appointed by LGC, then LC, NLHC, Workers' Comp, PUB, RHA, Legal
Aid Commission, CNA, school boards and school districts are.
So, I am not sure that certain groups are not I guess it is probably
because they are considered to be sort of out there on their own or arm's-length
of government. Again, Mr. Speaker, I
do not know where all of that is coming from.
Mr. Speaker, disclosure is where an employee reasonably
believes there is a wrongdoing committed or about to be committed and may
disclose to the Office of the Citizens' Representative single disclosure
process, disclosure of OCI only, unlike other jurisdictions of the HOA/AIA, no
internal disclosure to the head of government departments or a public body,
disclosure shall be in writing and shall be signed by the person making it, may
not disclose information or documents which would reveal deliberations of
Cabinet or those protected by the solicitor-client privilege.
Mr. Speaker, when the investigation is done and the
Office of the Citizens' Representative does the act apply to whistleblowers at
that point in time? I am just trying
to bring some sense to the legislation.
Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to take up any more
time. It was a pleasure speaking to
it. Certainly, there are different
parts in the legislation that we tend to agree with, and of course, there is
also some there that we do not agree with, so hopefully there will be amendments
to this particular bill.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Justice.
MR.
FRENCH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It is certainly a privilege of mine to get up after
listening to some of the people across the floor get up and speak to the
whistleblower legislation, as it is commonly known in the House.
I heard a couple of things talked about earlier that I am hoping to
reference over the next couple of minutes.
I am not sure how long I will go on for, but there are
a couple of points here that I believe is very, very important to make, and
something that obviously the Justice department did quite a bit of work on this.
Many of the officials in Justice have worked very, very closely with the
office of OPE. I guess the idea of
this being in OPE is that it fits perfectly with what OPE stands for not only
in this Province in the country, but certainly internationally.
So, Mr. Speaker, this piece of legislation certainly fits in there.
I think it is important, I notice that some of the
criticism that has come from the hall, across the way, it has been about the
length of time that it has taken.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have taken quite a bit of time with this; we have watched
it in several other provinces, how the legislation unfolded.
We have even learned from some jurisdictions who have had a lot of
trouble with this legislation and has not been up to par.
So, we believe we have the best of it here.
Many of the people who have viewed it have said the same.
It was interesting as I sat here and I was listening to
the Member for St. John's South and he was talking about the time that it was
taking and so on. I have to
highlight it for the people at home.
The Member for St. John's South was actually the Minister of Justice in 2007
when this was crafted and talked about, when Justice Green brought down his
report, Mr. Speaker.
So, if the hon. Member for St. John's South was so
concerned at the time, and so concerned about the timing and so concerned about
the legislation, well, as Minister of Justice at the time he would have
certainly brought this forward, but obviously he did not.
So I have to point that out, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
OSBORNE:
A
point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER (Littlejohn):
The hon. the Member for St. John's South, on a point of
order.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Mr.
Speaker, this legislation, the same as the safer communities and neighbourhood
legislation, as the other side of the House knows, when a bill is introduced
there is a process it has to go through, and that hon. member knows
MR.
SPEAKER:
There is no point of order.
The hon. the Minister of Justice.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
FRENCH:
Mr.
Speaker, I was going to let it go at that, but now I have to point it out and
explain this a little further.
Picture this now, the hon. member was the Minister of Justice from, I think it
was January, 2007 to October, 2007.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
MR.
FRENCH:
Now, Mr. Speaker, I just heard the hon. Member for St. John's South threatening
me, deciding that if I did not sit down he was going to get me down.
I look forward to the hon. member's comments.
I sat and listened to him patiently.
Now it is my turn.
Unfortunately, because of our rules of order and the way this House operates,
now it is my turn to get to say the things I want to say.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
FRENCH:
When the Member for St. John's South gets up here and grumbles about this
government being a long time bringing this legislation forward, and when the
hon. member himself was in charge of this legislation and was the one who was
supposed to bring this forward in 2007, Mr. Speaker, then he better expect to
get retaliation. That is the point I
was trying to make for our listeners at home.
Before I go on too much longer on that, I thought it
was important for people to see what people can say sometimes, but there are
other things that should be pointed out.
That is why had to highlight the fact that the hon. member was Minister
of Justice for that period of time and he had ten months.
He could have easily brought this forward, Mr. Speaker.
I had to point that out for our listeners at home.
Mr. Speaker, there is one thing about this piece of
legislation. It brings out two
important pieces, and I would like to touch on the explanatory note of the bill
because I think that explains it the best.
It is usually the place I go when I want to see quickly
MR.
OSBORNE:
A
point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
On
a point of order, the hon. the Member for St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I want to give the member a history lesson.
The promise was in the Blue Book of 2007.
Mr. Speaker, I was the Minister of Justice up to and including that time,
not after. I was taken
MR.
SPEAKER:
There is no point of order.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Justice.
MR.
FRENCH:
Mr.
Speaker, I was into the explanatory note, but the Member for St. John's South,
his skin is a little thin today for some reason.
Usually he has skin on him like tapping leather.
I have to address that again, Mr. Speaker.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
MR.
FRENCH:
He
is making insults now, Mr. Speaker.
This is what you get.
Now I have to point something else out.
He reiterated it was a promise in the Blue Book of 2007, and he is
absolutely right, but our Justice wizard of the day, Mr. Speaker, was the Member
for St. John's South. He was leading
the Justice file at the time. He was
the one who was coming forward with Justice initiatives for our Blue Book
because he believed in them, Mr. Speaker, but if he is going complaining about
time, he should have brought them to the House at that point.
He was the Minister of Justice.
He was responsible for whistleblower legislation.
Mr. Speaker, I just say to the hon. member, I do not
mind him getting up and speaking, obviously everyone has a right to speak in
this House about any piece of legislation, but he had better point out, he
should point out to the viewing audiences we have across this Province that he
was here as Minister of Justice and could have easily brought this forward, but
he refused, Mr. Speaker, he refused.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
FRENCH:
However, Mr. Speaker, this is a government that is bringing it forward.
It is a great piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to speak from the explanatory notes
because when I am reading bills, that is one of the places I go often is the
explanatory notes because it is usually very simple.
It does not get into the details of a bill but it lays it out very
clearly. In this case, Mr. Speaker,
this bill does two things very clearly, provides a mechanism for the disclosure
and investigation of wrongdoings in or relating to the public service that an
employee believes may be unlawful, dangerous to the public or injurious to the
public interest; and protect persons who make disclosures
Mr. Speaker, it is quite simple, if somebody working in
the public service sees something they believe is illegal then they have every
right to bring it forward, and they can do so without fear of reprisals, without
fear of losing their job, without fear of being demoted and so on.
I would just like to go on and explain a little bit over the next ten or
fifteen minutes for the people here in the House and certainly give my opinion
on the bill and where it is. I
certainly, as I said from the start, believe it is a very good bill.
Mr. Speaker, when you are in politics and when you are
forming legislation, and you are in government, or you are in Cabinet, or you
are on this side of the House certainly, when you see others, in particular
obviously, there are political sides to any debate and you have strong political
opinions on one side of the House in favour of one party or the other party.
On this side you will have the same thing.
When you get independent people, people who are not
political they are not into it for politics.
They are actually independent officers.
They cannot be political.
Even if they wanted to be political, they cannot.
They are independent officers of the House who have the best interests of
the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador in their interest.
Their first and foremost interests are the residents of Newfoundland and
Labrador, including the people who work in government and in these buildings.
I thought it appropriate for me to start out by quoting
Mr. Fleming, who spoke to this bill and certainly will be a very important
figure in this bill. Obviously, he
is going to be the one, if you have a complaint his office is where you will go.
Mr. Fleming is in that chair and, I might add, doing a great job.
Mr. Speaker, to quote Mr. Fleming, this is what he said
recently. Actually, it was s CBC
news post on May 6. I just wanted to
quote Mr. Fleming because I want to remind everybody in the House, and people
listening, that this is not political.
This is a gentleman who is an independent officer of this House.
He has no skin in the game for this party or that party, or anybody.
However, like I said, he looks after the interests of the people of the
Province.
This is what he said.
I think it's a good day for the public service
really, the best model
in the country in terms of prosecuting or investigating complaints of
wrongdoing, said Mr. Fleming.
There is the independent officer.
This is what I would call third party endorsement, and there is nothing
like it when you see an independent officer looking at this legislation in great
detail and going on to say that.
He goes on to say,
this allowed for time to look at
what the rest of Canada was doing
To
paraphrase, he was saying that even though it took a little bit longer, what it
did was give this Province time to look at what was happening across the
country. That is exactly what we
did. You will find in some
jurisdictions, there were a couple of jurisdictions that had a lot of trouble
with this legislation. They had a
couple of real bad situations and bad circumstances; however, even the provinces
that have done it recently in the last year or so have learned quite a bit.
I think Nova Scotia may be the last one, if I recall correctly.
Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, they did very, very well on it.
Mr. Speaker, something else that Mr. Fleming goes on to
say is this information will be confidential.
You have to sign the legislation to bring it forward, but it is
confidential. Mr. Fleming and his
office will hold that information.
They will not be out sharing it, fearing that there will be reprisals come
against them. That is between that
person and, obviously, Mr. Fleming in this case, who will go on and look at it.
Mr. Speaker, so you can go forward and present your
case to the Citizens' Representative, then if by chance there is some reprisal
that comes against you if you have a director, a deputy minister, an ADM, a
political person, or a Cabinet minister, a backbencher, or somebody who sits
next to you, or somebody who does not like you, and because of that some harm
comes to you, whether you do not get a promotion in a position, whether somebody
tries to remove you from a position, regardless of what it is, then you have a
chance to go to the Labour Relations Board, another quasi-judicial group totally
independent of government and totally independent of the bureaucracy and the
leadership in the bureaucracy. They
do absolutely their own thing, and from that, from the Labour Relations Board,
they will be able to lay out exactly what is to happen.
They can order the person to have their job back; they can order that
they move desks. Whatever they
order, the government will have to obey by, whether that is leadership in the
government, whether that is political people, whether that is a division, or
whatever the case. Now we have two
very independent groups, not only enforcing the issues, but also protecting the
people who come forward. That is
certainly very, very important.
A couple of things have also come up, and I have heard
the Opposition say this, that they did not want single entry and that they
wanted some form of double entry. I
see where they are going. Where they
are going, I guess, is that if you have a problem with your supervisor and you
are in government, you can, okay, skip the supervisor or your director and go to
your ADM or your deputy minister. If
you were to do that, I think, personally, and we believe on this side, the
potential for something to negatively happen to the person who is bringing that
forward is highlighted. You have
more potential to have something bad happen to you for coming forward, which is
protecting the interests of the citizens in this Province.
That is why we have the third party totally separate
from the confines of a division, or even a department, or even in government.
The third party is much better with the single entry certainly than it
would be having multiple entries.
One of the things we talked about is confidentially.
Obviously some people might want to bring it forward and would not want
to be talked about in the lunchroom, if you will.
This makes sure that happens, Mr. Speaker.
I am certainly supportive of that single-entry system.
Mr. Speaker, another thing I wanted to talk about and
the member for Carbonear Harbour Grace brought this up, and I thought I would
just address it. One of the things
that he talked about was bringing things to the media and he talked about that
you would be controlling people speaking, so people would be in fear of speaking
out. One of the things we have to be
cautious of, and I know members opposite are of the same mind, and I am sure we
all agree in this House that we all do not get along all the time, so when you
are making a statement about someone it is a pretty serious allegation.
Can you imagine someone being wrongfully accused of something foolish
it could be something foolish or it could be something very, very serious
without an investigation? You could
go out to the media and make an accusation about one of your co-workers, one of
your bosses, or one of your employees and that could not be true; however, it
would be publicized throughout the Province.
Mr. Speaker, you have to have protections for that.
If there is wrongdoing, then the Citizens' Rep will follow that through
right to the bitter end. The Member
for Carbonear Harbour Grace talked about how this is secret and no one will
know.
I just wanted to point out and I am just trying to
highlight some of the things. This
is not meant to be any other way than that.
I just wanted to highlight some of the things that the Citizens'
Representative has to do, Mr. Speaker.
It is not about hiding at all, quite the contrary.
First of all, the Citizens' Rep is required by law to table a report in
this House every year. That is
something he has to do under the act.
There is no grey area; he has no choice but to table that report.
That report includes a number of things.
It includes the number of inquiries the man or woman received, the number
of disclosures received, the number he has acted upon, the number of
investigations that have commenced and are ongoing, and the number of
recommendations the Citizens' Representative has made.
He will go in and in this report he will say what he has told other
departments he wanted to do.
He also has to say whether that public body has
actually acted on his recommendations.
That is hardly a closed shop.
That is laying it out there. That is
laying it out every year how many he has had, what he has said for them to do,
and if they have complied.
What are the other things?
Let us assume that something really, really bad happens.
God forbid, knock on wood, nothing like that ever happens.
Let us say something really did happen, so much so that the Citizens'
Representative of the day decided this is big stuff, this is really bad, and
this is really something. He has the
right then under his or her discretion the office has the right to publish a
special report dealing specifically with that one incident.
For someone to say this is a secret process, nothing
could be further from the truth.
Quite the contrary, it is a very open process.
That was the idea of the legislation to begin with.
That was why we came forward with it.
It was time; it was needed.
The public wanted it, and we were listening to the public in bringing it
forward, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the other thing he has to do as well, of
course, is that office, the Citizens' Representative Office, also has to in a
timely manner provide all the employees with what this is all about.
So when this comes into force, it is acted upon in the coming weeks, this
goes through the House of Assembly, it is signed off, and then it will come to
pass. The Citizens' Representative
will then go out and explain to all the people who work in these governing
bodies how it works. He will let
everybody know how this works and how they can maneuver through it should they
ever be put in that position.
Mr. Speaker, my time is coming to a close, but I just
wanted to address one other thing before I sit down.
One of the other things the Opposition has pointed out is: We do not want
it to start tomorrow; we would like for it to go back in time.
Now, there is no necessary fear in going back in time, but the problem is
that all legislation is in to the future.
If you pass the legislation today, today it is in effect and it moves on
for years and years to come until someone in this House decides to get rid of
the legislation. If you were to
entertain the idea of going back, where do you end?
Where do you go back, a year?
Do you go back two years? Do you go
back five years? Do you go back ten
years?
I remember first when I was elected, Mr. Speaker, I was
actually in the House and I had a meeting with a constituent and it was an issue
that went back twenty years almost twenty years.
When I started to look into it, and unfortunately for the poor gentleman,
it never did work out in his favour because many of the people who were involved
had been retired from government.
When I tried to do my minimal investigation, many of them had retired.
In some cases, some of them had passed away, so it was very difficult to
go back.
Memories fade obviously when you are working in a place
like this. The notes you would have
would certainly be current. You
cannot go back and expect people who are retirees to keep a logbook of
information for years and years to come.
It is not unusual, and for anyone to make the claim and make the spin
that we have to go back, nothing could be further from the truth, Mr. Speaker.
That is just the way legislation works in this House and once it is
acclaimed we move on.
Mr. Speaker, on that note I just want to say I think it
is a great day that we are hopefully coming to the end of passing this
legislation. I think it will benefit
the people of this Province and in particular the people who work for the
Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Bay of Islands.
MR.
JOYCE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I will stand and have a few words on this here, on the
whistleblower legislation. I just
find it strange the Minister of Justice and I was smiling as he was
criticizing the member over here, talking about when he was in government and
talking about why didn't he bring stuff in?
Mr. Minister, I just wish the whistleblower was brought in a year ago
when the people from McIver's were suffering because they could not get a
$15,000 grant because some of them told me I spoke out against the West Coast
Training Centre therefore
MR.
FRENCH:
A
point of order.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Justice, on a point of order.
MR.
FRENCH:
(Inaudible) chuckle here, Mr. Speaker, because if he talks to the people of
McIver's he will find out they got the grant months and months ago.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
There is no point of order.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Bay of Islands.
MR.
JOYCE:
Actually, they got it early April.
Thank you for cc'ing me, though, because I embarrassed the government so much.
Thank you.
I say to the Premier also, when you talk about
whistleblower legislation and when you want to talk about people and why you
need it, Mr. Speaker, it is a prime example in McIver's.
I can tell you, when you speak to the people in the department, they talk
about if you never spoke up out in Stephenville, you would have gotten your
$15,000. If you want to talk about
whistleblower, that is why I would like to see some of it retroactive.
I am glad McIver's got it.
I am glad I embarrassed them, Mr. Speaker; I am glad no one got fired
because of it. That is a great
reason we need whistleblower, how people are being denied because of other
influences in government.
I just speak about the hospital in Corner Brook, Mr.
Speaker, if there was whistleblower.
We mentioned here about it being retroactive for a while back, back to when the
government first announced it in 2007.
We talk about all the misconceptions put out there in Corner Brook about
the hospital, how there were even notes sent around that you cannot speak up
about what is being said and what is being done.
We hear one public statement after the other of what is being in the
hospital, but when you go into the functional design with the people who are
actually and when I said this here before, the functional design committee
never met for almost two years but they were not allowed to publicly say it.
They were not allowed because they were not protected under any
whistleblower legislation.
I had to stand in this House of Assembly for a
year-and-a-half or two years saying it is not true, saying that yes, they did
meet, and yes, they are almost completed, Mr. Speaker, the functional design of
the hospital, knowing full well it was not.
The people who cared about the patients in Corner Brook, the management
at the West Coast hospital, would not speak up because they were scared of being
reprimanded or fired. That is why we
were looking at bringing whistleblower retroactive.
That is why.
When the commitment was made back in 2007, Mr. Speaker,
everybody was happy. Yes, we need
it, because there are wrongdoings happening in government.
It is sad to say we are all human it does happen, but we need to
protect the people who are going to stand up, Mr. Speaker.
When this legislation was brought in, make no bones
about it, it was done dragging them by the heels.
If you look at statements from the former Minister of Justice, dragging
their heels, saying no, we are not going to bring it in.
No, we will not be. There is
no need of it; everything is working fine.
When you talk about the government wanting to stand up
and tout about whistleblower, you have to realize, Mr. Speaker, they were
dragged into this here by their feet, by their heels, because of public
embarrassment. The former Minister
of Justice stood in this House, and I heard him say on numerous occasions no,
it will not be brought in. Guess
what? It is in here.
That is what Oppositions can do.
That is what we can do as an Opposition.
We can make government aware of issues that need to be brought into
government, Mr. Speaker.
I say to the Minister of Justice who is listening
attentively over there on this: You wonder why we want to make sure that it is
done right, if there is anybody in this Legislature, if anybody in this Province
of Newfoundland and Labrador wants to know why we need to do it right, Mr.
Speaker, look at Bill 29. We were
vilified over here on Bill 29, Mr. Speaker.
We did not know what we were talking about.
It was not going to happen, Mr. Speaker.
A few members over there said we are just fear mongering, we are just
totally fear mongering, we do not know, and everything we are saying is not
true. Guess what?
When they finally put the knife in the former Premier, got rid of her,
guess what? They all had a different
opinion on Bill 29.
What do you think of that, Mr. Speaker?
I know you would never change your mind on a bill like that, Mr. Speaker,
but they changed their mind on Bill 29.
Every one of them over there stood up and voted for it.
Every one of them over there thought it was the best thing since sliced
bread, but once the former Premier was ousted, they all stood up and said no, we
are going to send it out now and we are going to have it revisited because we do
not think it is the best thing right now, Bill 29.
That is why we need to show some flaws in this bill.
I am not saying bringing whistleblower legislation in
is a bad thing. I think it is a
great thing. There are a lot of good
things in this bill, I will be the first to say that, but there are changes that
we can make that will make it stronger.
If we do not make it stronger, Mr. Speaker, we can also educate the
public on what the bill actually entails.
I understand fully that as we move on in years that
there are going to be changes to the bill; there are going to be changes that
are going to be brought up that are going to enhance the bill.
I understand that. We all
understand that. Please, Mr. Speaker
and if anybody wants an example look at Bill 29, why we need and we made so
many amendments to Bill 29 and they were all voted down.
Now they scrap Bill 29 and have a committee out now to look at Bill 29
because it was the wrong thing to do.
That is why instead of looking at what the Opposition
is stating as just always bad, always criticizing, look and see what good points
are there to improve the bill. That
is what this Legislature is all about, to improve the bill.
I understand we are going to have fun with it sometimes
and I know we are going to play politics, and I understand that, Mr. Speaker.
I teased the Minister of Justice about McIver's.
The Minister of Justice wants to do the best he can for the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador; I know that deep down.
I am sure he realizes that I fight for the District of Bay of Islands and
I am concerned about the people of the Bay of Islands and Newfoundland in
general.
We play politics, that is fine, but I would never, ever
question his ability and his thought to try to improve things for the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador. We differ
on different approaches, on how things happen, that is fine.
Personally I feel we all, as legislators, want this here to work, and
work properly.
When we make some amendments and when we make some
statements here, just do not take it, throw it down and say they are no good.
Think about it; logically put them in the system just to see if this
would work, can this work, would it enhance the bill.
This is our role here as government.
This is our role as legislators, Mr. Speaker, is to offer friendly
amendments, give some drawbacks that are in bill, and see how we can help to
improve the bill.
That is why we all need to voice our concerns, and
voice our opinions. Some may be
fruitful, they may get into legislation, and some may not.
Every legislator here, every person here is bringing them back ideas that
we are hearing from our constituents.
That is what we are supposed to do, Mr. Speaker.
Just because we stand up and offer some suggestions,
that does not mean we are totally against whistleblower legislation.
That does not mean we are totally against it because I am not totally
against this piece of legislation. I
will say it honestly upfront.
Mr. Speaker, if you were here and you were for the
five or six days that we had on Bill 29 that we were vilified, that we were told
that no, we are just fear mongering.
Everything that happened was going to happen and was not going to happen.
We were just out playing on people's
emotions and people's fears. Now we
have Bill 29 scrapped and have it sent out to a committee.
Mr. Speaker, not everything people in the Opposition say is incorrect; it
is just not.
Let's look at it from a different approach, I say to
the government. Let's look at some
ways we can improve the bill for the citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Let's look at some ways we can say together that we made improvements to
this, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to go through for the first
little while the overview we got, the briefing from the Department of Justice on
this. I am going to go through the
overview of it and go through some of the points.
Each point has its own merit.
There are going to be some suggestions that are going to be made to some of
these points, and there are going to be some you agree with totally because
there are some good ideas in this bill.
I will be the first to say it.
Mr. Speaker, in the overview of the legislation there
are four main pillars. Employees may
disclose a serious and significant wrongdoing without fear or threat of
reprisal. Well, I understand the
intent. We all know human nature; we
all know how human nature works and how it operates.
If we know someone is trying to embarrass us, if someone is trying to,
for some personal reason, intimidate us, trying to make us look bad in front of
our superiors, or trying to assassinate your character, I understand the
Citizens' Representative should not look into that.
I understand that. I
understand that totally, but when you look at serious threat or reprisal, it is
hard to protect somebody.
I want everybody out there in this Newfoundland and
Labrador and I do not care what government it is.
It could be the current government, this government, or any government.
There is no 100 per cent guarantee that a person can be protected if they
go and make a complaint, Mr. Speaker not 100 per cent.
We have to ensure that is diminished to the best of our ability.
It has to be to the best of our ability because we know once a complaint
is made and once it is followed up on, there is going to be an investigation
done, probably in the department. If
it is done in the department, then people have to be asking questions.
Who made this accusation? Who
made the complaint? Fingers start
pointing.
Mr. Speaker, what happens a lot of times is people
point fingers at the wrong person.
There may be reprisals from the person who actually made the complaint and
others who never made the complaint but may be in just the line of fire.
People in their own natural state of paranoia may start lashing out at
other people.
Mr. Speaker, I am not sure how we can get without fear
or threat of reprisal. If you go to
the Labour Relations Board it becomes public, it becomes very public.
Mr. Speaker, as we all know, human nature itself, there are always ways
you can intimidate somebody without breaking the law.
As Parliamentarians, as legislators, we have to ensure
we diminish that as much as possible, but I would never, ever say that any
government should 100 per cent guarantee anybody that their identity cannot be
done in a lot of cases it will be, no doubt.
No matter what government it is, you cannot guarantee it.
I understand that government here is trying to make it very hard for
whistleblowers to have any negative impact on their accusations if they are with
merit.
The next one, the second pillar of the Department of
Justice: Office of the Citizens' Representative would have power and authority
to receive and investigate allegations of wrongdoing and publicly report
findings.
Mr. Speaker, I know the minister went and spoke on this
earlier, is that if there is extra funding for that office.
I understand also that there is no request made yet and I am sure I am
correct on that. There is no request
made yet, Mr. Speaker, because you do not know how many complaints the office is
going to have. I understand that, I
appreciate that.
Is there any way we can make a commitment and I am
not even sure if the House of Assembly could do it, it may have to be made
through the Speaker that if there is a need for extra funding, that the
funding will be in place? I know we
are looking at down the road, Mr. Speaker, if there is a need there may not be
a need. I will be the first to admit
that there may not be a need. It is
not proper to put it in the legislation that the Office of the Citizens'
Representative is going to investigate these whistleblower complaints, and a
year later, a year and a half later, he says I do not have the resources.
Now, I am not saying that will happen, but I think we
have to try to find some way to ensure, through this House of Assembly, that if
he makes a legitimate claim to the House, through the Speaker, that we any
government, and we all support it that he does have the resources to follow
through. Mr. Speaker, if we do not
do that and we keep the office at the same level, and we do not make the
commitment that, yes, we will follow through to make sure you have the
resources, what we are doing, we are saying: Yes, okay, we can have so many
complaints a year, deal with it the best way you can.
What happens then, Mr. Speaker?
If it does again, I am just bringing up what ifs, because it can
happen. It very easily it can
happen. This is something I want
government to think about, Mr. Speaker, to put in their information to say: How
can we make this better? How can we
handle that if it arises, because it will arise?
If the Office of the Citizens' Representative, Mr.
Speaker, is at its maximum now, and we are getting complaints some of them
will take a lot of time to do an investigation.
Some may need their own special investigator because of the time
complexities of the investigation and the circumstances.
That is something I ask the minister, that if you can find some way to
put a mechanism in place to ensure that if it is needed and it is proven to the
Speaker, to the House, that, yes, they do need it, that the funding will be
there for the resources. That will
make it much easier to support the bill.
Mr. Speaker, I heard the Minister of Justice talking
about every year the Speaker has to put in his report once a year.
What happened in 2011 when the House never sat that November?
Then we have to wait until fifteen days after the next sitting of the
Legislature. I do not know if there
is some way we could put a time limit in, that if the House does not sit in that
period of time, there is some way through the Speaker it can released to the
media. That is another concern a few
people have brought up. That it can
extend beyond once an issue gets beyond a certain date, then people are
waiting for the conclusion of it.
People are waiting for the final report, but if you have to wait for the
Legislature to open it may be extended a bit longer than usual.
That is something I will ask the minister also, if
there is any way to put in legislation that may help to ensure that the reports
are put in a timely manner into the House, especially when you are dealing with
someone who is going out on a limb to try to ensure that everything is running
properly in government. It is a
major risk for them. It is a concern
for them.
Then if the report gets dragged out, Mr. Speaker,
people are saying: Well, why are they holding on the report?
Why don't they release the report?
Why don't they do it so I can clear my name?
Especially if a person goes to the Labour Relations Board, if for some
reason, through harassment, through demotion or not getting a promotion, Mr.
Speaker, it is very fundamental that if someone gets exonerated in public, then
they feel that what they did was worth it.
It will make other people come forth knowing they are protected and the
report will be made public.
Mr. Speaker, anti-reprisal protection for employees who
disclose wrongdoing; I said this in the first main pillar, Mr. Speaker.
We can put in all the safeguards we like, but it will happen it will
happen. This is incumbent upon the
Minister of Justice and the Minister Responsible for Labour Relations to ensure
we have all the protections in place for the workers.
It is very difficult to do it, but we have to ensure it.
If we can do it, like I say, if they can make a complaint to the
Citizens' Representative, and then if it is kept confidential, it is a greater
possibility of not having reprisals.
If it is not kept confidential, as we know how things
get out and sometimes in the civil service, the anti-reprisal protections, Mr.
Speaker, have to be such that we can ensure, and this is something I asked the
minister also to look at somehow, not only ensure because of the allegation,
once the allegation is made, but in the future.
What happens, and it can happen very easily, is if someone does make a
complaint, they may have the report done, they may find the wrongdoing, and in
four to six months everything is fine; but after the four to six or seven months
you have to try to correlate that back for making the complaint.
It becomes a bit more difficult.
I am not sure how the minister can try to make laws that would help out
and have it documented in such a way that even after a certain period of time.
Mr. Speaker, I will get on the fourth one, and I will
get another time later in committee to speak: the Labour Relations Board to hear
complaints and award remedies including reinstatement for reprisals against
whistleblowers. We have to ensure
the Labour Relations Board does have the materials and they do have the power to
do this without delay.
Mr. Speaker, I will be back in Committee to speak on
this and I just thank you for the time to speak on it.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Education.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment and
Conservation, that we adjourn debate at this time.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
is moved and seconded by the minister that we adjourn debate.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Carried.
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
With leave, I would like to give a notice of motion
that was forgotten earlier on the Order Paper.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
By
leave.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Leave.
MR.
KING:
Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I give notice under Standing Order 11 that
I shall move that the House not adjourn at 5:30 p.m. on Tuesday, May 13, 2014;
and further I give notice under Standing Order 11 I shall move that the House
not adjourn at 10:00 p.m. Tuesday, May 13, 2014.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
is moved that the House does not adjourn at 5:30 p.m. on Tuesday, May 13, 2014
and it is also moved that the House does not adjourn at 10:30 p.m.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Carried.
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, at this point in time I call from the
Order Paper, Order 4, second reading of a bill, An Act Respecting Public
Interest Disclosure, Bill 1.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
MS
DEMPSTER:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am just going to take a couple of minutes, Mr.
Speaker, to go on the record speaking to Bill 1 as well, An Act Respecting
Public Interest Disclosure. We see
that, This Bill would enact the Public Interest Disclosure and Whistleblower
Protection Act. The Bill would
provide a mechanism for the disclosure and investigation of wrongdoings in or
relating to the public service that an employee believes may be unlawful,
dangerous to the public or injurious to the public interest; and protect persons
who make disclosures under the Act from reprisals.
Mr. Speaker, we know we have been a long time waiting
for this act. We see it was an
election promise since 2007, seven years ago.
One of my concerns, and a concern of many, is that we have been talking
about this for seven years. Why has
this not been retro? Anything that
has happened up to July 2014, there is nothing that can be done about that.
That is very concerning.
We have been hearing a lot about Humber Valley Paving.
I would be remiss if I did not mention that.
If there is anybody within the governing bodies who would like to talk
about some of the things or their involvement, they are not protected to do so
under that file where there is a lot of concern and the spotlight is on right
now, Mr. Speaker. This is only
dealing with it going forward from July 2014.
I do think whistleblower legislation, a long time
coming, is going to serve a very important role in rural areas.
In the district I represent, we have a lot of unique situations I believe
are different than around other parts of the Province.
I am going to mention several.
I think about Transportation and Works.
I will use an example where we have clusters of employees who stay in
little camps. They all exist under
the same roof and they are there for turnaround periods of time.
Mr. Speaker, a lot of times when you are a long, long way from main
offices, supervisors, and things like that, you can see things that are going on
around you, but you are sharing camps with those people.
You might see wrongdoings, but up until now they were not going to speak
out because there was no mechanism.
There was no process in place. These
people needed to know that their jobs were protected.
In many cases in rural communities, if you are fortunate enough to have a
government position, you might be the only one who is bringing income into that
household. Those provisions were not
there before.
I can think of a situation, Mr. Speaker, back three or
four years ago where one person was so concerned about things that were going on
that they finally did report. When
it came in and it was investigated, it was really, really unfortunate that there
was this tension. Somebody came in,
they sat at the kitchen table in that camp, and one by one they interviewed
people. Just like my colleague from
Bay of Islands was referring to, fingers started to be pointed and this is the
kind of thing that prevents people from coming forward when they see wrongdoings
all around them. At the end of the
day, all of us pay the price for that when there is a mismanagement of public
funds and things like that.
For that reason, I am really happy to see this in
place. It may encourage more workers
who are in rural communities and rural areas, if they see wrongful misdoings
going on around them. It might
encourage them; however, there is something wrong with the process, Mr. Speaker,
right now, the act we are debating here with no internal process.
I am thinking right now the Office of the Citizens' Representative is
here in St. John's, so internally somebody would go to their manager and then
that manager would go to his manager.
I do not know how that is going to work.
Do we know how much more resources are going to be put
in place? What about the extra
funding? Do we know the cost?
We probably do not know on a go-forward basis because this whistleblower
legislation is just being brought in right now, Mr. Speaker.
Certainly there is room here with this piece of legislation for
amendments to come down.
The other thing, Mr. Speaker, is the time frame.
I had a look through the act and I cannot see when somebody finally gets
the courage to come forward and voice a concern they have or identify something
that is a wrongdoing how long this is going to be hung up in the system.
Obviously, sometimes it takes a lot for people to come forward.
They maybe cannot have confidence in the system that they are going to be
protected in their job. The quicker
this is dealt with, the better for all the parties involved.
I believe we need to see some kind of a time frame around that.
I mentioned transportation workers in particular, Mr.
Speaker, and the unique circumstances many of them are in, working in clusters
and alone in my district. I also
want to mention the importance of whistleblower for people like nurses and
nursing staff in our community clinics.
We have protocols in place.
We have policy. When somebody gets
sick, often there is a Twin Otter that has to be dispatched and has to come.
There is a flight medical specialist team.
There is work all the nurses have to do to follow protocol.
The ambulance workers come.
All of this happens in very remote areas.
Sometimes protocol is not followed; sometimes lives are on the line
because protocol is not followed.
Those three or four people who are working in that community clinic might be
very aware something was not followed right; yet, can I risk speaking out and
lose my job? I am in a small
isolated community; where am I going to find another job?
Not to mention the fact that I would be remiss, Mr. Speaker, if I did not
say it is a very small community and the people that you might be blowing the
whistle on are the same people that you line up and get your groceries with on
Saturday night. It is a little bit
different than an urban area.
So we are going to have to try this bill.
We are going to test it once it comes in.
People will need to know that it is very confidential and that they are
going to have to take time to build up their confidence in coming forward.
Also, I want to mention the teachers.
There are a lot of issues in rural communities.
We have many schools that have double grades and now we are getting into
triple grading classrooms. The
Schools Act had some amendments last fall about bullying.
I think it is wonderful any time that we can bring down new legislation
that is going to protect people from bullying, but again my concern around that
was I did not see where there were any extra resources attached to help that
being implemented in small schools where teachers are already very maxed out.
We know that we have teachers who see things that are
going on around them, not only teachers, administration; but, again, everybody
is there concerned about their job and sometimes they have felt that it is
easier to turn a blind eye and move on.
Hopefully, this whistleblower we have been hearing people from all four
corners of the Province that have been waiting for a long, long time seven
years for this piece of legislation to come in.
So we know that people are happy.
They have been waiting for it.
It is what we need. I believe
that everybody, Mr. Speaker, will be better off in the workplace once this
legislation is brought in.
We know that it is critical for employees to feel
confident in the process. Again, I
take it from a rural focus. It is
very important when you are living in small communities and you have to work to
with these and many of them, Mr. Speaker, are family and related to each
other, so they need to know that protection is there for them.
We are anticipating, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt,
that there will be an increase in the Office of the Citizens' Rep workload.
We do not know what their budget increase will be.
Mr. Speaker, we see that this comes into force in July,
yet we did not see any new money in the Budget.
So I look forward to hearing what some of my other colleagues have to say
on that; that is just some of my areas of concern.
I will just run down through, Mr. Speaker, looking at
the legislation, the four main pillars.
We see that in this whistleblower legislation employees may disclose a
serious and significant wrongdoing without fear and threat of reprisal or
retaliation. It is absolutely
necessary; everybody needs to know in the workplace.
That will only make the workplace a
better place by bringing in this whistleblower legislation.
The Office of the Citizens' Representative will have
power and authority to receive and investigate allegations of wrongdoing and
publicly report the findings publicly report the findings.
Again, Mr. Speaker, we see that this just moves us more in the direction
of transparency and accountability.
It takes us back to the taxpayers' dollars of those publicly-funding employees.
Really, it is your money, it is my money, and like my colleague, the
Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace often says, it is the people's House, and
it is about managing that properly.
So, again in the interests of transparency we are moving in the right direction
with this whistleblower legislation.
Anti-reprisal protections for employees who disclose
wrongdoing people are not going to come forward if they feel that there is
going to be repercussion for them.
We already know that is why we have been calling on the whistleblower
legislation for a long time, and we have been waiting for this promise since
2007; it has been on record. The
Labour Relations to hear complaints and award remedies, including reinstatement
for reprisals against whistleblowers.
So, hopefully, Mr. Speaker, with some of these pillars that are in place,
it will encourage people to come forward and we will hear publicly what the
findings were of the investigation.
Mr. Speaker, to provide a mechanism for the disclosure
and investigation of wrongdoings in or related to the public service that an
employee believes may be unlawful, dangerous to the public or injurious to
public interest. Again, sometimes
you might have a case where an employee knows that his buddy is helping himself
to a bit of gas at the end of the day there and no one is around to see that.
That is not injurious, yet that is mismanagement of funds.
It is important for them to know that they can speak out and be
protected. When I referenced the
clinics in particular in the remote areas and all of the policy that has to be
properly in place because lives are in the balance there that is where we would
look at the injurious and the danger.
So I am glad to see that a number of different areas are covered off here
to protect those persons who make disclosures.
We see, Mr. Speaker, that the act is not intended to
deal with routine operational or human resource personnel matters, and we would
hope that there are already processes in place right now to help people deal
with that. It is very important as
we go forward that within the various departments people are educated, that they
have the knowledge on what they can come forward with and what they cannot.
There needs to be some PR around this whistleblower once it is brought
in.
The definition, for example, of wrongdoing.
We know it is consistent with other jurisdictions, and it is important to
have consistencies there. It is
important again for the people who might want to come forward and utilize the
protection of the whistleblower act, important for them to have that knowledge
on exactly what is entailed. We know
that wrongdoing is defined as an act or omission constituting an offence under
an act of the Legislature or the Parliament or Canada.
We know that a wrongdoing could be an act that creates a substantial and
specific danger to life, health or safety of persons.
Mr. Speaker, I am really looking forward to what is
going to come out of this act once it is implemented.
It is very, very important. I
believe that by bringing in whistleblower legislation we are only going to be
moving to make the workplace better for everybody, and people are going to feel
safer in the workplace. Hopefully,
we are going to have a stronger handle on the public funds.
Right now all of us maybe know of places and situations where there
is mismanagement of public funds and public assets, but the people are just
turning a blind eye because up until now there was no protection there.
We know that a wrongdoing is anyone who knowingly
directs or counsels a person to commit a wrongdoing as set out above.
Mr. Speaker, we know that the people protected here would be government
departments and public bodies.
Memorial University is not because I believe they have their own.
Mr. Speaker, there are lots of issues on the go right
now with the College of the North Atlantic.
As the provincial critic for Advanced Education and Skills, every single
day I am receiving a broad gamut of e-mails, people that have concerns around
the College of the North Atlantic, people who are very concerned with what is
going on in some of the classrooms between instructors and students.
It is anything but professional.
Also, right now we see cuts coming down and we are not sure how far
reaching that impact is going to be.
We are being told that they are being made based on labour market information,
but we already know that labour market information is very outdated.
There are a lot of concerns around things with the
in-depth, publicly-funded education system within Newfoundland and Labrador.
This piece of legislation will not help what is happening right now
because, again, sadly this does not come into effect until July.
I can only hope that once Bill 1 is passed that people
will find the comfort level to come forward and as a result of them coming
forward and identifying shortcomings and wrongdoings within the system that we
will end up with a better system.
Once we have a better system, that serves to benefit everybody as we go forward.
Education is a very key area.
Mr. Speaker, Nelson Mandela always said education is the key with which
we can use to change the world.
Therefore, our publicly funded institutions, we need to know they are being run
as absolute, clean, above board, professional as they can be, not where
instructors are feeling the pressures and stresses so much that they are going
in and raising their voices at students.
Then, as a result of that, you have students quitting.
Then it is like a circle, they are unemployed and they do not have an
education and they are coming back around.
So I can see where whistleblower legislation will certainly move to
improve areas like the publicly funded college system.
Mr. Speaker, one of the other points under disclosures
that I noticed was an employee may request advice from the Office of the
Citizens' Representative when considering making a disclosure.
I think this was very, very necessary because somebody might have
something in their mind and they are not sure: Do I go and disclose that or do I
not? Is it noteworthy?
Maybe it seems a big issue to me but it is not.
Because that provision is there, maybe after the employee has gone out
and sought the advice of the Office of the Citizens' Representative they may
decide they are not going forward.
Maybe there will be another plan of action.
Maybe they will just go to their supervisor and hope that it will be
dealt with that way.
One of the things that did concern me a bit is that
they may not disclose information or documents which would reveal deliberations
of Cabinet or those protected by solicitor-client privilege.
There are some things here that are still going to be covered; some
things here that are still going to have a black mark.
We are not going to know what those are, Mr. Speaker.
Overall, I am very happy to see that Bill 1 is finally
on the table. Whistleblower
legislation is finally being brought in, and that the Office of the Citizens'
Representative will investigate disclosures received under this act.
We are being told the wording in this bill states that the investigation
will be informal and as expeditious as possible.
Again, we do not know the time frame.
We do not know the extra resources that are going to be allocated to
this, but I believe that the timing is very, very critical.
Just like we have often heard the term in the justice
system, delayed justice often means denied justice.
When something is brought forward and it is a very big deal right now,
maybe if it is not dealt with right away, in six months' time people may not see
the relevance and the importance and why that was a big issue at that time.
I think, Mr. Speaker, that is something that is going to have to have a
close eye kept on it as we move forward.
I am pleased there is a bill that is going to ensure a right to
procedural fairness and natural justice for all of the people involved.
Why is it so imperative, Mr. Speaker, also, for this
act to ensure the right to procedural fairness and natural justice for all
persons is because we also have to be mindful of the fact that we may have
people come forward, pointing a finger at someone, and maybe that person was not
guilty. That is why it is necessary
for this process to be carried out in its full entirety because sometimes
somebody might be finger pointing and that person did not necessarily do the
wrong, so it would be wrong for them to be labeled that way.
We know the Office of the Citizens' Representative is
not required to investigate where disclosure would be appropriately dealt with
via another procedure or act, like if too much time has elapsed, if it is
frivolous vexation, not in good faith, or not enough particulars provided.
That is good, because, Mr. Speaker, we would not want this to become a
cumbersome process and be held up with things that are not important or would
not fall under the details of what would be considered the whistleblower of the
person and there are other procedures, back to things that are operational or
things that are of human resource in nature.
We see that the Office of the Citizens' Representative may refer
disclosure back to a department or a public body if the matter can be more
appropriately resolved internally.
Mr. Speaker, I am happy to see Bill 1 come on the table
and I am happy to speak to it. I
believe there are some improvements that need to be made to the bill and we will
work with that on a go-forward basis.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
If
the hon. the Minister of Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs speaks now, he
will close the debate.
The hon. the Minister of Municipal and
Intergovernmental Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KENT:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It is great to rise again to speak on Bill 1 and close
debate in second reading. I want to
thank hon. members for participating.
We had, I think, over a dozen members on each side of the House
participate in the debate. There is
obviously lots of interest because this is a new and very significant piece of
legislation for the public service employees of this Province.
I am very pleased to see there is such a great level of interest and I
look forward to further discussion as we move into the Committee phase of the
debate as well.
While I have an opportunity to close second reading,
though, I would like to use that time to address some of the concerns that have
been raised and some of the questions that have been raised.
Of course, what I do not get to in the short amount of time I have, we
will be able to talk more about it at the Committee stage as well.
Mr. Speaker, our decision to move this legislation
forward will address the gap that currently exists in this Province with respect
to mechanisms that are available to employees who have knowledge of serious
wrongdoing that they wish to disclosure.
This legislation will afford them protection from reprisal when doing so.
It is further evidence, as well, of our commitment to doing what we said
we would do in a past Blue Book. It
demonstrates our commitment to open government, ethical conduct, and integrity
within the public sector.
Mr. Speaker, during this debate, members opposite
questioned the length of time it took to develop this piece of legislation.
That was a criticism that I anticipated.
We have used the last number of years to consult with other
jurisdictions, to watch this legislation evolve in practice in other
jurisdictions, to ask questions, to determine an appropriate disclosure process
for this Province, and to ensure that the anti-reprisal provisions provide
efficient and effective protection tailored to meet the needs of our public
service employees here in Newfoundland and Labrador.
We have also been reviewing and researching best
practices, and we have learned and gained valuable insight not only from other
jurisdictions across Canada but also from our own Citizens' Representative.
He currently has a similar role under the House of Assembly whistleblower
legislation. He has also been
monitoring and consulting with his colleagues across the country about best
practices that exist in this area.
That has been helpful to us as well and it has certainly informed our process.
Once this legislation comes into force on July 1 of
this year, we will be the seventh jurisdiction in the country to implement
whistleblower legislation. After the
news conference that was held to announce this legislation, the Citizens'
Representative was quoted as saying that this legislation represents the best
model in the country. Mr. Speaker,
this signifies that this legislation is fully endorsed by our independent
Citizens' Representative. It
highlights the fact that we took the proper time to do the due diligence
required to ensure that this legislation is robust and meets the needs of our
public service employees.
Some members have also questioned the rationale behind
moving forward with a single disclosure process.
So I would like to share with you why exactly we are going in that
direction. With respect to the
single disclosure process through the Citizens' Representative, there are
significant benefits for employees.
One of our objectives with respect to this legislation is to uphold the
integrity of the public service by ensuring a transparent and effective process
for disclosure of wrongdoing.
The single disclosure route is considered the most
efficient and effective process which will allow all employees to make
confidential disclosures to one independent office.
That office is equipped with the skills, the expertise, and the training
necessary to conduct investigations in a fair and an impartial manner.
Employees will likely feel more comfortable with this
process, given that they therefore will not be required to disclose internally
within their own office or organization.
We chose not to go with a dual disclosure process as that would involve
internal and external disclosure, and would increase the need for new resources
to be allocated for the administration of the disclosure and the investigation
process. This, for instance, would
require all government departments and public bodies to provide ongoing
training, as well as up-to-date policies and procedures.
It would also require a high level of impartiality in order to conform to
the principles of procedural fairness.
I think this would be tough, if not impossible, to achieve on an ongoing
basis. Other jurisdictions have
struggled with this approach, and we have learned from those other
jurisdictions.
Under our recommended approach, employees, including
supervisors, managers, and executives of the public service, will be informed
with respect to the process and protections set out in the Public Interest
Disclosure and Whistleblower Protection Act.
They will have full and they will have complete information to make a
decision on how they should proceed in the event that they become aware of
wrongdoing in accordance with this act.
The Office of the Citizens' Representative will ensure that employees
have access to the information they need to understand the legislation, and also
understand the roles and responsibilities of all parties and the implementation
process as well.
Mr. Speaker, the Office of the Citizens' Representative
is a single office that is independent of both the political process and
government administration. The
office will receive inquiries; it will conduct investigations, as outlined in
Bill 1. This will strengthen the
comfort level and contribute to enhanced confidentiality for employees who make
or are considering making a disclosure.
If there is wrongdoing within the public service and our employees have
awareness of it, we want it exposed and we want it investigated.
We also want our valued employees to be protected during that process,
and that is what this bill is all about.
It is obvious that some employees may be reluctant or
uncomfortable with disclosing significant wrongdoing if they have to do so
internally to a supervisor or a deputy minister or a CEO, as would be the case
if we utilized the dual disclosure process.
We want to facilitate disclosures of legitimate wrongdoing in a safe and
supportive environment. That is the
core and fundamental premise of this bill.
It is a critical component that we believe to be one of the essential
components of this legislation, and it is what makes it unique from other
jurisdictions.
With regard to Cabinet information I know, Mr.
Speaker, that has arisen several times during this debate there is a
requirement to protect the confidentiality of Cabinet proceedings, and that is a
cornerstone of the Canadian system of government.
These documents are protected by convention, common law, and legislative
provisions as well. This is a
principle that has been widely recognized by Canadian courts.
Democracy works best in our system when Cabinet
ministers in charge of government policy and decision making are free to express
themselves around the Cabinet table without reservation.
The essence of the principle of Cabinet confidentiality is therefore to
protect the collective decision making of ministers whereby ministers discuss
issues and arrive at decisions.
It is important to note that New Brunswick, Ontario,
Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Alberta, the Government of Canada, all
jurisdictions that have whistleblower legislation in this country, also include
this protection in their whistleblower legislation.
It is expected that employees who have knowledge of
Cabinet information would also be aware of the expectation that this information
is protected and not subject to disclosure.
Additionally, the Office of the Citizens' Representative is knowledgeable
about this issue and will provide advice accordingly.
Mr. Speaker, not only does this legislation enhance the
integrity of the public service in Newfoundland and Labrador, but it has built
in accountability measures to the public.
The Citizens' Representative may refer a matter to the Auditor General,
if he or she thinks that it is more appropriately investigated under the Auditor
General Act. The Citizens'
Representative may also refer a matter back to a department or a public body if
it is more appropriately resolved internally.
This allows the Citizens' Representative to make informed decisions based
on individual employee situations and needs and ensures that matters receive the
most appropriate response.
The Citizens' Representative, as has been pointed out a
number of times during debate, is required to prepare an annual report, not only
prepare it but table it in this House, outlining the number of inquiries
received under this act, the number of disclosures and the number acted upon and
not acted upon. The number of
investigations undertaken also has to be reported, the number of recommendations
made, and whether departments and public bodies have complied with the
recommendations.
Whether there are any systemic problems that contribute
to the issues, any recommendations for improvement that should be considered,
all of that will be encompassed within the reports that the Citizens'
Representative will not only prepare but table in this House of Assembly.
The Citizens' Representative will also have the
authority to publish special reports, which I think really addressed a couple of
the concerns that have been raised during debate.
If he or she deems it to be in the public interest and consistent with
the scope of his or her functions and duties outlined in this act, the Citizens'
Representative has the authority to publish special reports at any time.
This includes the publishing of a report related to an investigation of
wrongdoing under the act.
Through this debate we also discussed the issue of when
this legislation will come into effect.
Mr. Speaker, it is important to note that no other jurisdiction provided
for retroactivity when their acts came into force, and there is good reason for
that. Wrongdoing that is ongoing
prior to the act coming into force and continuing after the act becomes
effective can be disclosed. There is
no question about that.
With respect to the comments made about retroactivity,
I provide the following explanation.
Generally speaking, legislation does not include retroactive or retrospective
clauses. Retroactive application of
legislation is usually found in financial and tax provisions.
It would not be appropriate, from a legal perspective, in this
legislation that we are debating here in the House.
Mr. Speaker, I would also note that with respect to
wrongdoings prior to this bill coming into force, those matters can still be
investigated under a number of pieces of legislation.
They can be investigated under the Criminal Code, the Environmental
Protection Act, the Occupational Health and Safety Act, the Personal Health
Information Act and the House of Assembly Accountability, Integrity and
Administration Act. Those acts have
anti-reprisal protections as well.
Unionized employees are also free to make internal
disclosures of wrongdoing and to receive protection through their collective
agreements. I think that is another
important point to raise that addresses some of the concern that has been
expressed during debate.
As well, we are all aware that the Auditor General,
under the Auditor General Act, can review a matter any time there is a financial
issue; therefore, there are existing avenues for serious wrongdoings to be
addressed. We recognize that there
are still gaps and we need to address those gaps, and that is why this
whistleblower protection legislation is so important.
Mr. Speaker, questions have been raised about who is
covered by this legislation and why it only applies to public service employees
and not those in private sector.
Well, this act is intended to protect the public interest by ensuring that
wrongdoings related to the public service are disclosed and investigated.
This whistleblower legislation is about public accountability and
integrity of the public service for those involved in the delivery and
management of public services and programs and the management of public funds
and assets.
Private sector companies can certainly choose to adopt
whistleblower policies to increase the integrity of their organizations and to
facilitate disclosures of wrongdoing and protect employees who make those
disclosures and I would certainly encourage them to look at this act as a model
for their own policies.
The act is intended to protect the public interests by
ensuring that wrongdoings related to the public service are disclosed and
investigated and employees are protected from retaliation if they choose to
disclose. Mr. Speaker, this
legislation does not require employees to disclose wrongdoings.
It enables employees to make a disclosure and to feel assured that they
will be protected from reprisals if they choose to disclose.
Mr. Speaker, I also wish to address the issue raised
about why an employee would not be protected from reprisal action if they
disclose wrongdoing internally to a supervisor or manager.
The reprisal protection that was contemplated in this act is being
provided to assure employees that if they make a disclosure, they are protected
against reprisals as outlined in the legislation.
Mr. Speaker, a question also arose about whether or not
this legislation covers municipalities.
No, municipalities are not covered by the application of the act.
This again is consistent with other jurisdictions in Canada.
Municipalities, however, may choose to adopt whistleblower policies to
increase the public's confidence in their elected officials and their staff who
are delivering programs and services to the community.
I would certainly encourage municipal governments to look at that, as the
minister also responsible for Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs.
Another point that has been raised relates to the
discretion provided by the Citizens' Representative to choose not to investigate
if it is believed that too much time has passed between when the matter occurred
and when it is reported, and that the investigation of that would serve no
purpose. Mr. Speaker, I want to
advise that while this bill was being drafted we certainly considered the pros
and cons of including a specific time frame, and that I know has been suggested
by members opposite.
For instance, Nova Scotia's act requires that
disclosures of wrongdoing must be made within twelve months of an employee
becoming aware of the matter. We
considered including such a provision, but we determined that allowing the
Citizens' Representative to make that decision was the preferred option.
It allows the Citizens' Representative to accept and investigate
legitimate disclosures whenever it is felt there is a useful purpose for doing
so, no matter when the employee becomes aware of the issue and reports it.
We believe this facilitates and supports disclosures of any wrongdoing
that occur and allows the Citizens' Representative to make case-by-case
decisions on investigations rather than ruling out investigations due to the
date that an employee becomes aware.
There could be a valid reason for an employee making a
decision to delay making a report and we want to ensure those reports can be
accepted. This is not ambiguous or
vague; it is discretion that is being provided to the Citizens' Representative,
which we believe and which the Citizens' Representative believes is critical.
Mr. Speaker, we have a lot of information to share with
our employees so they understand this legislation from start to finish.
In the coming weeks, we will ensure that all public service employees
have access to information about this legislation.
The Office of the Citizens' Representative will issue a news release and
provide detailed information on its Web site within the coming weeks before the
act comes into force with a complete update regarding this new legislation and
what it means for public service employees in the Province.
The Office of Public Engagement, together with the Office of the
Citizens' Representative, will ensure comprehensive employee awareness efforts
and education are in place.
Mr. Speaker, I see my time is winding down.
I urge all hon. colleagues in this House to support the legislation we
are proposing here. We all
acknowledge, on both sides of the House, that we have a competent, professional
public service. This government
values their significant efforts, which on a daily basis benefit the residents
of Newfoundland and Labrador. We
really believe this legislation is the right approach in ensuring the integrity
of the public service and ensuring that it remains strong.
The citizens of this Province can rest assured that every opportunity to
report wrongdoing is available to our public service employees.
As the Citizens' Representative stated just a week or
so ago, this legislation represents the best model in the country.
While it admittedly has taken some time to prepare this legislation, it
is important that we get it right to ensure it meets the needs of our public
service employees for many years to come.
Mr. Speaker, again, I thank all hon. members for
participating in debate during second reading.
It was an informed and spirited debate.
I look forward to clarifying various points that may be raised during the
Committee process.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill now be read the second time?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Carried.
CLERK:
A bill, An Act Respecting Public Interest Disclosure.
(Bill 1)
MR.
SPEAKER:
This bill has now been read the second time.
When shall the bill be referred to a Committee of the
Whole?
MR.
KING:
Now.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Now.
On motion, a bill, An Act Respecting Public Interest
Disclosure, read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole
House presently, by leave. (Bill 1)
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Given the time, I move, seconded by the Minister of
Education, that the House take a recess for supper and return at 7:00 o'clock.
MR.
SPEAKER:
This House now stands in recess until 7:00 p.m.
May 12,
2014
HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS
Vol. XLVII No. 25A
The House resumed sitting at 7:00 p.m.
MR.
SPEAKER (Verge):
Order, please!
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
At this time I call from the Order Paper, Order 2,
Concurrence Motion, Government Services Committee.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Concurrence Motion, the Government Services Committee.
I recognize the hon. the Member for Kilbride.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
DINN:
Mr.
Speaker, I do not think I am going to be off the topic or anything because I am
going to talk about a very interesting subject.
One that is very important to this Province, one that has been important
for a number of years, and I am hoping it is one that is going to be important
for many years to come. I am talking
about the oil and gas industry. I
tie it in with Concurrence because of the financial aspects and the revenue
aspects of it.
Oil and gas accounts for a substantial portion of
provincial government revenues. In
recent years, it is approximately 25 per cent of what we take in.
Over the last number of years it varies, 24 per cent, 26 per cent, but in
most cases it is roughly one-quarter of our revenue that we take in.
I think we had a little bit of a downturn a couple of
years ago because some of the rigs were in for repairs.
They were not pumping oil for a while, so consequently the revenues
declined a bit. Since first oil came
from Hibernia in 1997, up to March of 2013, oil royalties have contributed $14.7
billion to the provincial Treasury; $14.7 billion, that is real close to $15
billion. In that time, 1.44 billion
barrels of oil have been extracted worth $102 billion.
In 2014, 85 million barrels of oil will be extracted
from our three oil producing fields.
Hibernia will yield 47.5 million barrels of oil this year, Terra Nova will yield
16.8 million barrels, and White Rose will yield 20.8 million barrels.
The oil and gas industry is the largest contributor to the provincial
GDP.
In 2013, 8,800 person years of employment were realized
from this industry, including support industry.
That is a lot of people working at that.
I do not know if this included the fact that people go to Alberta.
I do not know if they are even included, but I would say that is
associated only with our industry.
If you could count the people who are going away and coming back all the time,
that would mean a big, big impetus to the Province here from the oil and gas in
Canada.
Hibernia was the first offshore oil project to be
developed in this Province. We all
know that. It is operated by
Hibernia Management and Development Company Limited.
Hibernia oil is extracted using a gravity-based structure, a GBS.
Hibernia and Hibernia South Extension did contain an estimated
1,395,000,000 barrels of oil, that is recoverable oil.
Hibernia South Extension will extend the life of the
Hibernia field from five to ten years.
From first oil in November, 1997 to the end of last year, December 31,
2013, 876.5 million barrels of oil have come from Hibernia.
That means there is approximately 500 million barrels of oil left to be
extracted. This represents 35 per
cent of the total estimate that was there in the beginning.
So the lifespan of Hibernia is now approximately ten years.
In ten more years, or a little bit over, we will find that Hibernia
probably will close down unless some oil fields, or more oil reserves are found
somewhere in that locale in the distant future.
The Province has a 10 per cent equity stake in
Hibernia. Terra Nova is our second
offshore oil discovery. First oil
came from Terra Nova in 2002. Terra
Nova is operated by Suncor Energy limited using a FPSO, floating production
storage and offloading vessel. The
oilfield contains an estimated 592.4 million barrels of recoverable oil.
Up to December 31, 2013, Terra Nova field has yielded
349.4 million barrels of oil, which is 59 per cent of the recoverable oil that
Terra Nova was estimated to have in the beginning.
This means that 41 per cent of recoverable resources or reserves are
left. Without adding reserves in
this area, the lifespan of Terra Nova is approximately ten to fifteen years.
These are two of our oilfields, Hibernia and Terra Nova, with lifespans
of around ten years or a little bit over.
Our third one is White Rose.
When I talk about White Rose we are also talking about North Amethyst
too, our third producing offshore oilfield.
White Rose is operated by Husky Energy using another FPSO, which is a
floating production system we are talking about here.
The estimated reserves for White Rose are 379.8 million barrels.
First oil came from White Rose in November, 2005.
First oil came from North Amethyst in May, 2010.
The Province also has 5 per cent equity in this field.
From November, 2005 to December 31, 2013 that is our
last year 218 million barrels of oil have been extracted from White Rose.
This represents 57 per cent of the estimated reserves, which means 43 per
cent of the reserves are left.
Therefore, if we use the amount we are talking about extracting from White Rose
this year, if we use that as a figure, I think it is around 20 million barrels.
That would mean there is a lifespan of eight years left on White Rose.
Mr. Speaker, as I said in the beginning, the oil and
gas industry is a significant contributor to the provincial Treasury.
The reason I mention these numbers and mention these three oil fields
not that most people did not know about it, all of us know we have three oil
fields. We know they have a lifespan
that is going to end sometime, that they are going to be out of oil.
I, too, and I have heard others; many are concerned in the past few years
that we are going to run out of oil.
As a matter of fact, twenty years or so ago, probably
twenty-five years, a common theme that you heard from scientists and people in
the oil business, people in many industries, is that the world would eventually
run out of oil. Now that idea kind
of died out over time because of all the finds in different areas, but I was
concerned about this and a lot of others were concerned: What will happen when
our oil reserves run out? What would
we do to replace the lost revenues, the lost jobs and the business activity that
is associated with this work? It
looked like there was an end when you look at the three that we do have, each of
them are close to ten years and then they would be all finished, all pumped out.
There is good news on the horizon, though.
There are two oil projects preparing for the day when new oil will be
extracted. There are actually two
projects now ongoing where the construction work is going on and these will be
pumping oil in 2017.
The first one is the White Rose Extension project.
This is already in the construction phase, as I said.
An estimated 115 million barrels of oil are expected to be extracted from
this project using a concrete gravity-based structure.
MR.
F. COLLINS:
Argentia (inaudible).
MR.
DINN:
That is being done in Argentia, isn't it?
Good.
The development phase of this project is expected to
generate 2,800 person years of employment in this Province alone, and it will
create 250 new long-term platform positions when the contract work is done and
when they actually start extracting oil from the ground.
Furthermore, the Province will get $3 billion in royalties from the life
of this project. That is just from
this White Rose Extension Project.
We will get $3 billion in revenues and royalties from this project over the time
that it lasts. White Rose Extension
is a partnership between Husky Energy, Suncor Energy, and Nalcor, which holds a
5 per cent equity stake for us, the Province.
I said already that first oil from this project is expected in 2017.
A second new offshore oil project in its construction
phase is Hebron. We all know about
Hebron. Hebron was discovered in
1981. The Hebron field contains in
excess of 700 million barrels of recoverable oil.
Now, when Hibernia started they thought there was only around 600 million
barrels of oil; but after further investigations and when they got into it, they
found out that it contained an awful lot more.
We know that it is still ongoing and will be for another ten years.
The Hebron project received official sanction on
December 31, 2012, becoming the Province's fourth stand-alone offshore project.
The Hebron project will use a GBS also, being built in this Province at
Bull Arm that is on the go right now.
Two of the four topside modules are also being built in this Province.
The Accommodation Module is being built at Bull Arm, and the Drilling
Support Module is being fabricated at Marystown.
As of December 31, 2013, the Hebron project was employing 4,937 people;
86 per cent of which are Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
So a lot of activity, a lot of wealth being spread around, a lot of
good-paying jobs.
The Province has a 4.9 per cent equity stake in Hebron,
with ExxonMobil Canada, Chevron, Suncor Energy Incorporated, and Statoil Canada
also partnering. ExxonMobil is the
operator of the project. First oil
is also expected in 2017. The
Province stands to gain many billions in royalties from Hebron, as well as jobs
and other commercial activities and business activity.
The capital cost of Hebron is $14 billion that is $14
billion twice, pretty well, the price of Muskrat Falls.
A lot of money is being spent, a lot of people from the Province are
getting jobs, a lot of good-paying jobs, and a lot of revenue is going around
the Province because of this.
The White Rose Extension and Hebron should keep this
Province active in the oil business for another twenty years or more.
That is even after the other three are probably pumped out.
Now, this is pretty good for us, because it will keep us in the oil
business a lot longer. That means if
we are another ten or twenty or more years in the oil business, we are going to
have these royalties coming into the provincial Treasury for that much longer.
Now, what will happen after this, though, is the
question that some would ask. This
oil history of ours will continue well beyond twenty years, I can assure you
that, with the new discoveries by Statoil in the Flemish Pass Basin in 2013.
I do not know if anyone heard VOCM this morning at 8:00.
Fred Hutton was interviewing the Vice-President of Statoil who was
ecstatic about the fact that they had one of these new discoveries and what it
is going to mean.
In 2013, Statoil had two discoveries in the Flemish
Pass, like I just said, the most significant of which was the Bay du Nord
discovery the largest oil discovery in the world in 2013.
We had the largest new oil discovery in the world in 2013.
In 2013, Statoil announced the Harpoon and Bay du Nord discoveries;
these, in conjunction with the 2009 Mizzen discovery also made by Statoil
have the potential to rival and replace Hibernia, White Rose, and Terra Nova.
Preliminary estimates put the Bay du Nord discovery at 300 million to 600
million barrels of recoverable oil.
Mizzen is estimated to contain 100 million to 200 million barrels of oil, and
the Harpoon discovery is yet to be determined.
They do not have any figures for that, because I guess they have not done
much drilling in that area.
In the next year, Statoil is preparing to do a lot of
drilling in the Flemish Pass Basin.
When I listened to the interview this morning with the Vice-President of Statoil
with Fred Hutton of VOCM, she was saying that Statoil is well equipped and well
used to drilling in deep water. Now,
in this Flemish Pass Basin the water is supposed to be over 1,100 metres deep.
This is nothing new for this company.
As a matter of fact, it is only routine for them, in all their other
activities around the world. So they
feel that this is not going to be a big challenge at all for them.
They are hoping to have the Bay du Nord project they
are trying to accelerate it actually so that in the next four or five years they
might have some activity going on there.
They say that they are hoping in the fall of the year to get an oil rig
down I forget the name of the one now.
It is going to come down and drill more delineation wells so that they
can probably get a better estimate of how much oil there really is.
This is going to be our next big, good news, the Bay du Nord development.
That is two new projects that are going to take place
which will keep us in the oil business for twenty, thirty, probably forty years.
Now, that is not the only thing that is on the go here.
There is a lot of exploratory work going on in many other areas in this
Province. Oil companies are drilling
or preparing to drill offshore in the Western part of this Province.
They are preparing to drill or do exploratory drilling off the Coast of
Labrador and there is also drilling activity planned for Western and Central
Newfoundland, on land itself. We are
not talking here about hydraulic fracturing.
We are talking about actual drilling of oil.
Along with this, calls for bids were announced in May
2013 for three different offshore parcels of land that companies could pick up
and go and explore and see if there is oil in these also.
Remember, there is a lot of ocean out there under our jurisdiction, and a
lot of oil out there too. People
thought years ago that we would only be in the oil business for twenty or thirty
years. I think we are going to be in
the oil business probably an awful lot longer than that, and that all bodes well
for us because we are going to have the royalties and have an equity stake which
means that we are going to get more out of these than ever before.
I do not expect the price of oil to go down to what it
was when Hibernia started. When
Hibernia started the break-even price for oil was $18 a barrel.
I think we are getting more than $18 a barrel for oil now, if I am not
mistaken. I saw today that the Canadian
dollar is down around ninety-one-point-something cents, which also helps us.
It means that we get more for our oil than we expected.
It is good for exporting when our dollar is down.
Now, all of this discovery and new activity bodes well
for the Province's Treasury and for our economy in the future.
It means oil wealth and activity for many years to come.
Now, when you combine this with Muskrat Falls, we said we were going to
develop Muskrat Falls as a source of revenue in the future, we will sell excess
power, we will take what we need and we will sell the excess power and again,
we are not talking about selling wagon trains; we are talking about selling a
commodity that will be wanted and needed in the future.
Muskrat Falls, along with all the other activities and our resources that
we have on the go, we have good potential.
We have mining expansions planned new mines coming into existence and
it is all going to be good for us.
There is lots of room for expansion. Our
fishery with the new deal that we have, the trade with European markets, it is
going to be good for us in our fishery.
Our agricultural industry there is lots of room for
expansion for agriculture in Newfoundland.
When you consider that we bring in probably 90 per cent of what we are
using in this Province in the way of vegetables and fruit, we should be able to
take advantage of the markets that we have here.
I always look at John Lester and Jim Lester in my
district as a prime example of what can be done with agriculture in this
Province. If John Lester could grow
or had the land base, and I guess the weather and the time and everything else,
to produce three or four times more than he is producing, he could probably sell
it. He is usually out of produce by
December, by Christmas, which means that there is lots of room.
There are big markets here in the city alone, in the Mount Pearl area.
Go in to Brookfield Road on a Saturday afternoon in the fall of the year
not even the fall, August, September, October and you find big, long lineups
of vehicles looking for that produce.
Our timber, our lumber, our forestry, all of these bode
well. These sectors look like they
are going to be very important for us in the future.
When I look at all of this, I can see the future as being so bright that
I think a lot of us are going to have to wear shades.
Thank you very much.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace.
MR.
SLADE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to do a little bit of talking
about the condition of the roads in my district.
It is quite relevant in regard to I sit down and I listen to the members
opposite talking about the strings of pavement that they are putting through
their districts. Like every member
here, we all want great things for our district.
I am here tonight to speak on some of the things that are going on in my
district.
Mr. Speaker, up on High Road North in Carbonear, it is
the entrance to our town, the town's boundaries end off by the first house going
in that road. The road belongs to
the Province. Our boundary line is
right to the end of that house.
Council has been plowing that road out to the highway just so that we could be
half decent with government and they would not have to take their trucks in off
the road. So, this road is in a
deplorable state. It needs to be
corrected. I take notice that the
Minister of Transportation is over shaking his head saying no, it is not; but I
can assure him that it is. The town
is after sending in to the minister's office the boundary lines to the town and
where it ends to.
Anyway, that is one issue in the Carbonear district,
Mr. Speaker. Another issue are those
lights there on Columbus Drive, alongside the TC Square.
Last year the Department of Transportation went down there and they
painted the dots on the road and one thing and another.
Those lights are activated by vehicles stopped to the lights, lines
across the road, and they never were done, Mr. Speaker.
They just simply, simply did not get done.
I can assure the Department of Transportation it is a very, very
dangerous intersection indeed. Many,
many accidents have taken place there prior to those lights going in there in
that intersection.
So anyway, Mr. Speaker, that is just a couple of issues
as it pertains to the Town of Carbonear.
Now, there are a couple of other issues in Carbonear that I would like to
bring up also. One is, I question
when the school was built and the school was occupied and they were in building
four more classrooms on the end of it I am concerned about that, what took
place there. Somebody had to have
the numbers, and the kids were in there in school and construction going on, of
course. That was something else,
too.
So, Mr. Speaker, those are a few issues about there.
In Harbour Grace, Harvey Street in Harbour Grace was supposed to be done
two years ago. That is a Department
of Transportation road. I do not
even think there is anything in the budget this year to continue on with that
stretch of road. Like I said, it was
supposed to be done two years, and up to this point in time it has not been
done.
Mr. Speaker, in Riverhead there is a section of road
that was done by the transportation department about three years ago.
The drain was on one side of the road, the road was elevated to the
opposite, residents down there now, six or seven residents along that road, are
getting the full brunt of the water on the road there.
In some cases, it is running in to people's garages and one thing and
another. We had a meeting with the
Mayor of Harbour Grace and of course there is a letter gone off to the minister
to that effect. I am hoping
(inaudible) whether it is with curb and gutter or whatever the case may be, but
the water and the pressure has to be taken off those people down there.
They are having a very, very tough time down there, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, Harvey Street in Harbour Grace, I want to
get back to that again for a little bit.
Is it government's intention to finish that road for the people in that
area? It is in deplorable condition.
I will tell you, it was a good job done on it to where they ended off,
but now we need to move forward with that.
It is a shame to see such a state of a road, especially a road that
belongs to the Province.
Mr. Speaker, there are another few issues in Bristol's
Hope. It can be twofold.
There is a beach that goes across Bristol's Hope that ties one road into
the other, on the north and the south side of town.
Over the last few years the Department of Transportation no longer tries
to keep that road open, and there are some concerns there.
On the other side of the road, the issue is that there is a pond and it
is now infilling with beach rock and one thing and another.
Mr. Speaker, if the community of Bristol's Hope, if
somebody took a loader and went down and filled in that pond, I am sure it would
be an environmental concern to somebody in here.
I am pretty sure that they would be out and stop them from filling in
that pond. There is life in that
pond, trout and other things, and that is not the biggest problem, Mr. Speaker.
By this road not being reinstated there, as it was over the past, it is a
big concern if a fire took place down in that area.
Bristol's Hope is mostly a wooded area and the possibilities of somebody
actually getting trapped down there, if they were not able to travel across the
beach area, they would be trapped either on one side of that community or the
other. So, there are two concerns
here. One is safety of the residents
in Bristol's Hope; and, of course, the other one being the safety concern as it
pertains to the environmental concern as it pertains to that pond in that area.
Mr. Speaker, there certainly has to be something done for those people
down there. It is not a big job, by
the way. It is not a big job to have
that road reinstated.
MR.
MCGRATH:
You
are going to put (inaudible).
MR.
SLADE:
Mr.
Speaker, I take note the Minister of Transportation does not feel this is a big
thing, but I can assure him that this is a big concern for the residents of
Bristol's Hope. It is a big concern
for me as the MHA for the Carbonear- Harbour Grace district.
I will continue to fight to make sure this job gets done.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to tell you, I have my twenty
minutes now. They will get their
opportunity when the time comes.
They may think it is funny, but the people in Bristol's Hope, or the people in
Carbonear, or the people in Victoria or anywhere else, do not think it is funny
what is taking place with them out around there.
Mr. Speaker, Bryant's Cove; I will thank the
government. They finally rectified
the situation as it pertained to the drinking water in Bryant's Cove.
I am very, very glad that was done.
Unfortunately, it took an election to get it done, but it was done and I
really do appreciate that.
Mr. Speaker, they have another big concern up there
right now, and they did apply for capital funding this year.
It was Point Road. We are in
the position over there now and the people over there are calling me, they are
e-mailing me with their concerns.
The problem is that road, Point Road it is called, the pavement is that bad on
that road now that bus drivers no longer will travel out there with the bus
because they are breaking springs off the bus to pick up the children.
That there in itself is a concern for the safety of the children on the
buses too I am sure, but that Point Road needs to get done.
It is important to the people in that part of the district.
Mr. Speaker, Victoria is a growing community and needs
infrastructure. I just want to bring
up one thing in this House now and it needs to be brought forward.
Some years ago there was what they call Limits of Service agreements.
In order for our towns to grow on that part and I will explain it too,
because some people probably do not understand what it means.
What it means, Mr. Speaker, if just say for instance,
you wanted to put another road in the Town of Carbonear and the town took it
upon themselves to do it, they would not be able to apply to government for
funding on that section of road because it would be what they call outside the
Limits of Services agreement. In
order for communities to grow in the district this should certainly be looked at
with the possibility of lifting that, because we all want our communities to
grow. Each and every one of us wants
our communities to grow.
Mr. Speaker, just to give you an idea on that, Victoria
is indeed a growing community. It
has a lot of housing. It did a lot
of housing over the last few years and it is certainly increasing in size.
Of course we all want our communities to grow and prosper.
Mr. Speaker, Freshwater is another area.
I will go back to it again; it has the same problem as Bristol's Hope.
The beach is actually washed in over the road.
With very little work from the Department of Transportation this can be
repaired, this can be fixed. This
will give people a way out.
It is the same situation they have in Bristol's Hope.
Freshwater is a pond on the other side there, and there is some infilling
taking place there now as it pertains to the beach.
Again, Mr. Speaker, I cannot emphasize enough on the fire safety and the
fire aspects of that community also.
It is in poor shape and we need to do the same thing with it.
Like I was just speaking to you, I did say as well as Bristol's Hope, so
that has to be taken care of.
All towns in the district, Mr. Speaker, depend on our
government to show a little leadership and to bring some capital works and
capital funding to the district in order for the districts to maintain, to grow,
and to just be a part of the Province.
I am certainly going to try my very best to do that for them by standing
up here every day and speaking about it.
Mr. Speaker, I will say to government that in
Spaniard's Bay now in order for me to talk about Spaniard's Bay I have to look
over at my colleague on the other side there too, because he and I split a
district. I am going to give you a
little bit of history on one road that was done down there, and it was done some
time ago now. It was a road done up
by the church.
We had a PC member in one end of the district, and we
had the Liberal member on the other side of the district.
The curb ended up getting put on the PC side of the district, and no curb
was put on the other side of the road.
Talk about splitting districts.
By the way, Mr. Speaker, just to give you a heads up on
that, up until this point in time, in a five to six-year period, the Town of
Spaniard's Bay received $256,000 in capital works.
I will say that this time around they received a very good increase in
their funding. In one year they
almost doubled it, and I am sure it is for probably a three-year period.
They almost actually doubled what they received over the last five or
six. I am very happy for the Town of
Spaniard's Bay and for that part of the district, as well as, I am sure my
colleague opposite is also.
Mr. Speaker, we all sit here in our seats and we all
try to do whatever we can for our districts.
I am very respectful of that.
I am respectful of the members opposite for what they can get for their
districts and one thing or another, but we are on this side, too.
I am only here because the people wanted me here.
I am here to bring their concerns forward to you guys, and hopefully at
the end of the day to have that conversation with each one of the ministers over
there. When I have concerns I need
to bring them forward.
I will just say this; any time that I stand here and
speak I am speaking from the heart, I am speaking on behalf of my constituents,
and I do not really apologize to anybody for that.
We all live in different parts of the Province.
Some communities get a little more than others.
That is understandable; I have no problem with that.
Mr. Speaker, we cannot leave parts of the districts out because we are
going to be vindictive. I do not
want to think that way. I want to
try to do the very, very best that I can do for my constituents.
As well as all you guys over there, you try to do the best that you can
for the district.
All I am saying to you here right now tonight, and I
will sit down then, Mr. Speaker, is that I am going to stand here and try to do
the very best I can for my district.
Those concerns I brought here tonight gentlemen, those are legitimate concerns.
I am certainly hoping that I get to hear the minister on those concerns,
to discuss them a little further. It
is a concern for the people who live in those communities and those towns.
Mr. Speaker, I want to touch on one other item now,
just to bring it into the same fold.
The fishery, Mr. Speaker, we have to be proud to be Newfoundlanders.
The fish and everything was brought here and we were here because of the
fishery.
Mr. Speaker, we need to spend a little bit more time on
that, and emphasize on that a little because we have to remember one thing, the
fishery is a renewable resource. The
fishery and the forestry are renewable resources.
Mr. Speaker, if we do not pay attention and I will say this, the
average age of a fisherman out there today is fifty-five years old.
Like everything else, unfortunately we have nobody coming behind and that
is going to present a real problem to the Province overall.
I am not sure it is not being designed that way.
You take some young fellow now who wants to get
involved in the fishery, it is going to cost him big time because the first
thing he has to do is go out and buy an enterprise.
He has to buy licences and one thing and another, which is probably going
to cost anywhere from $500,000 to $1 million.
Who is going to do that? I do
not know. I have grave concerns that
it is not designed that way by the federal government.
I have some great concerns about it, like every other organization or
whatever out there.
You will hear tell of that volunteers do not volunteer
so much anymore. When you look
around the room and see who the people are that are volunteering, you will see a
lot of grey heads. We have to engage
our youth into getting involved. I
have no doubt in my mind.
Mr. Speaker, the fishery is indeed an important piece
and parcel for all of Newfoundland and Labrador.
I would like to leave on that note, Mr. Speaker, but I will say that I am
here and I am prepared to work with the ministers opposite to make sure that we
bring great things to the District of Carbonear Harbour Grace.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Service Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
CRUMMELL:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak to Concurrence
here this evening as part of the budgetary process.
For the people at home, this is the way the various committees can report
back to the House what the committee members have heard in the Budget Estimates
process and then provide some commentary on that.
So, as a minister, I am not one of the members of one of the three
committees of the House but I do have an opportunity to speak during the
Concurrence process, and I would like to take this opportunity to talk about a
few things here tonight.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to talk a little bit about my
responsibilities. A lot of people
ask me: Minister of Service NL, exactly what does that entail?
Sometimes I have to write it all down to get it all straight in my head,
because it is a wide and varied responsibility and portfolio.
I would like to talk to that for just about a minute before I get into
the thrust of what I want to talk about here this evening.
Mr. Speaker, I am Minister Responsible for the
Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission.
Most people are pretty aware of that entity.
I am Minister Responsible for the Office of the Chief Information Office.
A lot of people probably would not know what that is about, but basically
it is our IT department here within government.
We deal with entities and agencies, and the health care corporations as
well, providing services to employees and to external people of the Province as
well.
I am Minister Responsible for the Government
Procurement Agency. It is an area
where the Public Tender Act comes under my purview.
We are actually going through procurement reform right now, Mr. Speaker,
and there is going to be a lot to talk about that in the coming days and weeks.
I am also Minister Responsible for the Labour Relations
Agency. That was newly bestowed upon
me just last week. It is a new
portfolio that I am getting up to speed on.
It is a very interesting portfolio, when we hear all the conversations
around temporary foreign workers, what it means to this Province, where we are
going in the future. So, Mr.
Speaker, we will have lots to say about that in the coming days.
Finally, Mr. Speaker, I am Minister Responsible for
Service Newfoundland and Labrador, and it is here I would like to focus my
attention for this evening's talk. I
just want to talk about the vision of Service NL, people in Newfoundland and
Labrador living and working in healthy and safe environments with access to
efficient and responsive programs and services.
We talked about Newfoundland and Labrador providing
services and programs to the people of the Province.
Mr. Speaker, we are 530,000 people spread over God's creation and I
certainly look at Newfoundland and Labrador as God's creation but there are
challenges around delivering the services and programs to the people of the
Province. I believe the civil
servants in my department do an excellent job of that, a tremendous job.
I am very proud of the work they do, but we know that 500,000-plus
people, trying to deliver services to them is a challenge.
It is a challenge that we face every day, day in and day out.
When you compare us to a population base, like the City
of London, Ontario; London, Ontario has approximately the same population we
have as a Province. Well, their
footprint, Mr. Speaker, is about the same size as the Northeast Avalon.
Not even that probably, one half of that.
Delivering services to 500,000 people spread out over the size of two or
three provinces is a real challenge.
Again, it is a vision we have in place at Service NL to make sure that we can be
the best we can possibly be.
By March 31, 2017 and this is a mission statement,
Mr. Speaker Service NL will have enhanced program and service delivery through
improved standards and regulatory processes that promote living and working in a
healthy, fair and safe environment.
You will hear that constantly in the things we do within our department, working
in a healthy, fair and safe environment.
That is one of the key areas and thrusts of the responsibilities of
Service NL.
We provide a wide range of service, including
licensing, inspections related to public health, public safety, environmental
protection, the provision of vital documents.
It ensures the health and safety of employees in the workplace in
Newfoundland and Labrador. It also
safeguards consumer interest. The
department was created with the aim of providing a single window access point to
the public for those services. The
department derives the authority to carry out its functions from over 150 pieces
of legislation and related regulation standards and codes of practice.
Mr. Speaker, we are the keepers of a lot of legislation
that gives us the direction and the authority to provide the services to the
people of the Province. We are
divided into three branches. Service
NL is one branch, or Government Services; Occupational Health and Safety, which
is the area I would like to spend a few minutes on because it has relevance
today; and Consumer and Commercial Affairs.
That is the three branches of Service NL.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to focus a little bit on
Occupational Health and Safety. Why
do I want to talk about that branch of my department?
Well, last week was Occupational Health and Safety Week here in the
Province. Last week was North
American Occupation Safety and Health Week in all of North America.
We had a conference here in St. John's where we hosted participants from
right across Canada. Last week we
also had a National Day of Mourning for those who lost their lives on the job.
It was a very poignant ceremony in the Confederation East Block lobby.
This week, Occupational Health and Safety Newfoundland and Labrador are
having their provincial convention in Gander.
I am going to be speaking at that on Thursday night and I am really
excited about it.
The Occupational Health and Safety Branch of the
Department of Service Newfoundland and Labrador is a branch of government that
everybody here in this Chamber should be proud of.
We are leading the country in so many ways.
We are an example to the rest of the country in how to perform our duties
to make our workplaces safer and healthier, Mr. Speaker.
It is amazing when you look at the metrics and how far
we have come in the last ten years.
We have a professional group of people who are doing incredible work.
They are doing professional work that is at a level of nowhere else in
this country and in North America.
We are constantly being held up as a model to the rest of the country on how to
deliver this type of service to the people of the Province.
We have thirty-seven inspector positions within the OHS
Division, when we are fully staffed.
We have people coming and going, just like any other department.
Twenty-four of them are actually officers on the ground.
We have a senior industrial hygienist, we have four industrial
hygienists, we have two hazardous materials officers, we have two radiation
officers, we have one ergonomist, we have one engineer, a mine's engineer, and
we also have a consultant who works on a variety of different projects.
We have about thirty-seven inspector employees in these
positions, Mr. Speaker. They have
vast responsibility. They cover a
wide swath of land and have major responsibilities when it comes to striving to
instill a safety culture in the workplaces throughout this Province.
Mr. Speaker, employees, employers, industry, labour and
government are coming together in a relationship championing safe and
responsible practices at work, at home, and in our greater communities.
The right legislation, the right enforcement, the right employee
training, the oversight, the right culture and teamwork will add to incidents
reduced, prevented, lives saved, and a safer Province to live and be in.
Mr. Speaker, our goal in the Occupational Health and
Safety Branch of government is to accomplish zero injuries in the workplace.
Is that achievable in the real world?
The answer is yes. Every
single accident, every single incident, that happens in the workplace is
preventable. We actually call them
incidents in this business, because they are not accidents; they happen for a
reason. Accidents happen sometimes
for no reason. Incidents are what we
call them and it is an incident that happened because of a set of events that
happened leading up to that situation to occur.
We need to acknowledge that we must all continue to
work together to raise health and safety awareness wherever possible, and it is
not just a responsibility of the people that work in the Occupational Health and
Safety Branch of our government. Our
motto is working safely together. As
leaders here in the Province, in this room, in this Chamber here tonight, we all
need to take the responsibility, but so do the people at home who are watching
this here today. Safety is
everybody's responsibility, Mr. Speaker.
We all have to take it seriously and we all need to work toward that zero
injury gain.
Mr. Speaker, we have metrics in place that I am going
to talk about now in a minute that are exciting, I think very exciting.
We have achieved this all together.
We have effective working relationships throughout this Province to
enhance education, training, and enforcement.
Bringing all facets of Occupational Health and Safety together, we are
working to instill a stronger safety culture in Newfoundlanders and Labradorians
and we are doing it every single day.
We are moving towards that positive outcome.
We have achieved record numbers, even at a time when
there are more people working in our Province than ever before.
Service Newfoundland and Labrador recognizes this and that is why
increased investment in this year's Budget we are going to have two
Occupational Health and Safety inspectors that are going to be hired in a short
while to assist with our inspection program across the Province.
These additional staff will provide significant assistance in ensuring
that employers and employees are following the very best practices and that more
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians go home safe and healthy at the end of the
working day.
Mr. Speaker, the Occupational Health and Safety Branch
of Service NL continues to work with industry, labour stakeholders, employers,
employees, and certainly the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation
Commission to develop sound safety training standards and programs and to
deliver effective legislation in enforcement in Newfoundland and Labrador.
I attended a conference last week where we had multiple
speakers from right across North America talking about safety inspections and
how important they are to making sure workplaces are safer, but the whole theme
of the conference was called Make Safety a Habit.
The key note speaker who was over from Scotland, I believe, he was from
he was wearing a kilt. He talked
about the 20,000 or 30,000 employees within his company; it is a global company.
They manufacture paint, a very highly combustible product, very high risk
in the manufacturing environment. He
talked about you can have as many inspections as you want, and that is an
important piece of making our workplaces safer, and you need to use that as a
measure in some way, shape or form to show that indeed compliance is happening
in the workplace, but he talked about how people need to change their habits.
He talked a little bit about how sometimes some of the
older employees, you would think are the wiser employees, were the ones that had
developed habits over the years that were not necessarily the safest.
They knew what they were doing, they were very experienced, and to try to
change the habits in the workplace proved to be very difficult.
The younger employees actually were easier to train because they were
malleable and they sensed the risk that is inherent in their job situations.
He said by engaging the older employees to get them to
understand by simple little things in a run of the day can change an outcome and
focus on the older employees who are the mentors for the younger employees, they
found a great uptake in their safety programs.
Their focus went towards the older employees, the younger employees were
there, and they wanted to hear what the older employees had to say.
He said that was tremendous in a very short time, very short turnaround;
they got below 1 per cent incident rate within their company when it had a high
of 3 per cent or 4 per cent per 100 employees, because they focused on
understanding that bad habits are hard to die.
Changing habits in the workplace, changing habits when you are driving
your car, changing bad habits you could do the same thing over and over again
and nothing happen; it only has to happen once.
Changing those habits were fundamental to making your life safer and
workplaces safer.
It is not just about inspections and we hear this
every now and again about our rate of inspections, perhaps in the fish
harvesting sector, where we know it is a very difficult sector to get out and
inspect the fishing boats that are applying their trade two, three, and four
days at a time, 100 miles offshore, how can you parachute or land a safety
inspector on that boat to observe to see what is going on to make sure that
compliance is happening with regard to rules and regulations.
It is a very difficult challenge.
It is about the training, it is about changing habits, and it was an
incredible theme, Mr. Speaker, and everybody in the room was nodding their head
and they were all professionals in the industry throughout this Province. We all
have a role and responsibility to make sure that we have the safest place in the
world to live and work.
Speaking of enforcement and saying that changing habits
is important, enforcement is as well.
Our branch has a strong record of enforcement activities.
In fact, one of the leaders in the country.
The most recent statistics in 2012 show that we had the third highest
inspection rate per 100 employees in all of the Canadian provinces.
We also issued more directives in other jurisdictions per 100 employees.
You may look at that as a negative, we issued more directives.
When we went to a work site, we issued more directives per visits.
Well, the fact that we were there doing the work showed that our
professionals were serious about it.
We were there to observe the behaviours and observe the habits and make sure we
called them out and said this is something that you are doing wrong and not to
be doing again. That is a positive
metric.
We said we issued more directives per inspection; this
is indicative of our sound enforcement management program, a risk-based approach
to occupational health and safety enforcement in the Province.
By working with our partners, employers, employees as well as industry
partners and the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission the
Province now has the lowest injuries resulting in lost time compensation claims
ever recorded in our history. This
number has been stable for the last two years of 1.6 per 100 employees.
Mr. Speaker, this is about 50 per cent less than what
it was ten years ago when the rate was about 2.4 per cent.
That is a significant reduction in workplace incidents and it is all
because of that collaborative approach to safety in our workplaces, but, Mr.
Speaker, we are not there yet. We
have done tremendous work in this area, our civil servants, our officers, our
professionals in the job sites, in the high-risk environments, in other
environments as well.
Mr. Speaker, we are talking about violence prevention
programs now with the City of St. John's and participating with the taxi
committees. The Member for St.
John's East might be interested in having a conversation about that.
We need to talk about workplace violence.
Working alone are new issues in today's economy and what is happening out
there in the industry. There is more
work to be done for sure.
One of the areas I would like to just talk about
briefly before I run out of time and we do have our challenges, we admit that.
We do have metrics that we are not as proud of as we could be.
For instance, when we talk about fall related injuries and fatalities, it
is definitely an area where we need to see more improvement.
We have seen tremendous improvement when we brought in legislation a few
years back, I think it was in 2009.
In 2013, there were 8.1 injuries, including fatalities,
per 10,000 workers
from fall heights in the Province.
It is down from 8.4 in 2012, and down from 11 per cent in 2009, which is a very
positive trend but it is nowhere near where we need to get to when we talk about
fall related injuries and fatalities.
If everybody followed the rules and regulations training is mandatory.
It has to be done if you are working from heights.
You have to do it or you are not allowed to get up there.
If everybody followed the rules and regulations and
followed their training we would be talking about getting close to that zero
incident rate, Mr. Speaker, but we are not there.
We need to make sure our people are trained as best as possible.
They are making sound decisions on a daily basis.
Employers are making the right decisions, employees, supervisors, every
single day. In this area we need to
work very, very hard.
We brought in the regulations in 2009 for fall
protection. They were enhanced again
in 2012. Workers who work at heights
above three metres are now required to complete a fall protection certification
program approved by the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission.
Certification has to be renewed every three years.
In January, the Occupational Health and Safety Branch
drew up a scaffolding safety guide to support worksite visits promoting safe
practices and working from heights.
This is just some of the few facts around this, Mr. Speaker.
In 2013, the Occupational Health and Safety Branch
issued 728 work orders for failure to comply with scaffolding regulations, 190
of which were stop-work orders; 278 orders were issued for non-compliance with
general fall protection rig requirements, 139 of which were stop-work orders;
and 81 orders were issued for roof work infractions, 51 of which were stop-work
orders.
When I look at these statistics, it shows that we are
out there doing the enforcing that needs to be done, but these numbers are way
too high. We do not have the buy-in
from the industry that we need to have.
This is an area I do not mind standing up in the House and saying we are
moving in the right direction, but there is more work to do.
As minister responsible, I have taken keen interest in
occupational health and safety. I
have taken huge interest in it, and I want to see that ball move forward.
I want to see us get to that better place where everybody comes home safe
at the end of the day. It is
achievable and it is doable, and it takes a collaborative approach by all people
involved in the industry.
Workers, families have to put pressure on their
husbands and their wives, their loved ones, their daughters and their sons to
make sure they are safe in the workplace.
Think about safety. The first
thought in your head when you start that task, when you identify that job, the
task you have to do for the next half hour, half a day or whatever you are
doing, you have to stop and think, you think safety.
What do I have to do to be safe?
What do I have to do to come home safe to my family?
That is the key to making our workplace safer.
Mr. Speaker, I am running out of time.
I am very passionate about this.
I am going to be talking about this more in the House in the coming days
and weeks. Just a passionate plea to
everybody out there, let's be safe, let's work together, let's work
collaboratively amongst ourselves.
Let's make sure that we do everything we can, anything we can, everything we
possibly can to raise the awareness of occupational health and safety in this
Province.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I look forward to more comments tonight.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
MS
DEMPSTER:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am happy to get up and speak for a few minutes on
Concurrence and talk about issues in my district, and we have lots of issues.
The member across the way just talked about safety;
let's make sure everyone is safe.
Well, we certainly have lots of concerns when it comes to safety issues.
I could use my whole time just talking about transportation, and I am
going to start with transportation because until you have your most basic
infrastructure needs met, when you cannot move people in and out of a region,
where you are impacting the flow of goods of service, you have an issue and you
are not going anywhere. There are
many other things that hinges on that.
Just in the last hour, Mr. Speaker, once again we still
continue to have ongoing ferry issues.
We had a ferry that spent six hours on a 90-minute crossing earlier
today. Then she came back and she
has been left without icebreaker support again.
I think it is absolutely ridiculous.
Now it seems the earliest we are going to have that ferry move is on
Thursday.
Everybody sitting here, that does not impact them, but
there are a whole lot of people in Labrador who are impacted by that, Mr.
Speaker, and there seems to be no plan b to move the people when they are
disrupted. Now we have the
Apollo on, she is much smaller than
the Bond.
When she is unable to go for two or three days that means the traffic is
going to be backed up for who knows how long.
People with very important appointments, Mr. Speaker,
have been waiting months and months to see a specialist.
One lady called and said: If I do not make my appointment tomorrow, the
next earliest appointment I can get is October.
That is what we are dealing with, Mr. Speaker.
It is just not good enough.
In the last half an hour I have had calls from the
communities of Williams Harbour and Norman Bay.
They have an ice road during the winter.
That is what gets them in and out, that is what moves the mail and the
goods and everything through. Right
now, they have no transportation. Is
there going to be a helicopter put on for them?
What form of service these are the answers that the people need to
know.
The community of Williams Harbour, we have sixteen
people on an island. They have all
voted to relocate. Nobody wants to
leave their home. When you talk
about relocation, I think about the words of the song, I think it is Simani that
says: they left without leaving and never arrived.
That is what you end up with.
Sometimes when all of your services are gone and the school is closed, they knew
they had no choice. These people
have been waiting for months and months now.
They have many issues.
I have dealt with the member across the way on the
issues they have ongoing with Hydro and unable to pay the bill.
They are on a cut-off notice.
That community is at risk of the lights going out.
Now they have no transportation.
They are all seniors, I think about 95 per cent of them, what happens if
someone takes sick and they need to get out?
These are the kinds of issues we are dealing with in
Cartwright L'Anse au Clair. It is
very different. In here we get up
and we talk about the blue zone and if the space is wide enough for wheelchair
accessibility, and very important things, but the issues in Cartwright L'Anse
au Clair are monumental.
You have heard me many times get up and talk about a
fixed link. We absolutely do need a
feasibility study done to determine if a fixed link would be viable.
We certainly need something, Mr. Speaker.
Something that would reduce the cost of our goods and services by 25 per
cent to 30 per cent and it would also give us a means of moving people in and
out.
A number of times when I have been on Open Line shows,
people have posted things in social media and said this is what happened in
Change Islands and other communities when the ferry went down.
We are not talking just one community.
When you cut us off from the Island, Mr. Speaker, you are talking the
whole of Labrador. We now have a
road link that starts in Blanc Sablon, L'Anse au Clair, goes right through my
district, runs down to Goose Bay in Central, and to Lab West, and we know that
the pavement, after a long, long time, is coming.
So, certainly, we have to look seriously at that.
We know that the former Premier did a pre-feasibility study eight years
ago, he found out a number of things, and he did not carry it any further.
We now need to know if the costs have stayed the same.
There are always advancements being made in how things
are being done, engineering-wise, and so the cost may in fact be cheaper.
Just recently I was in New York and used tunnels a number of times going
over to Manhattan and on and off the island.
You are down, you are under, you are through the tunnel, you do not even
realize that you are under water, but things are just flowing all the time.
Until we can get the transportation issues taken care of in Labrador, we
are not going to move forward.
It is very frustrating for people when you see
multi-billion dollar megaprojects going on all around you.
I have mentioned it here before, and I will continue to mention it.
I talked to a lady today in Black Tickle a whole family that is living
right now on $800 a month. They
cannot even save enough to get out to Goose Bay somewhere to look for a job
because they are unable to save the money that they need to make that deposit on
an apartment. It is a sad situation,
Mr. Speaker.
When you look at the wealth just coming flying in
last night on the flight, Mr. Speaker, I read an article by the St. John's Board
of Trade. In that article she was
talking about the business potential that is coming up, and she said Labrador is
going to be exploding, tremendous business potential in Labrador.
It really, really, really is upsetting, Mr. Speaker, when you read that
kind of stuff knowing that the residents, the people who need it, are not going
to benefit from it.
I am happy to say that I do have nine more people who
are going to tomorrow to Muskrat Falls.
We have worked mighty hard to get them in there.
We could not understand why they did their profiles on the job site,
they were not getting in, and we knew they were qualified.
We have lost the supports in our communities like our employment offices
that were providing that assistance, and it really does tax my CA office when
half the time we turn around and we are ending up providing the service of an
employment office. These are the
things that we have to do because so many services have been cut in our small
communities. So, little by little,
we do have some numbers going in, but we certainly have a lot farther to go, Mr.
Speaker.
The recent cuts to the shrimp I know that is a
federal issue, but I believe that the onus is on this government to do whatever
it can relentlessly to lobby the federal government to ensure that either the
cuts are reversed, or there has to be a fair distribution.
As it stands right now, this LIFO policy last in, first out is very
unfair. People have geared up, they
have invested big money, and now they stand to lose all.
Many times at the Combined Councils when we sit around
and we debate and we look at our small communities, we sometimes use the analogy
that our small communities are bleeding out.
I was at a forum with my colleague for The Straits White Bay North over
at Memorial University just before the Easter break and I listened to Dr.
Barbara Neis reference the fishery as the guts of the small communities.
I thought, well, there you go, piece both of it together.
If we take the guts out of our small communities, there is a good reason
that they are going to bleed out.
We have an obligation to ensure the fishery we have
often referenced as the backbone of our Province, of our rural communities, and
we know that more than half of our Province is rural we have an obligation to
ensure that we do all we can to support the fisherpeople, to ensure that
fisheries like shrimp, like crab, that we have done all that we can to protect
that. Also, I believe that we need
to be looking at other species to see where we can diversify, where we can go
into new fisheries. We need to be
doing more. There is a fair bit of
interest right now in my area from fisherpeople on sea urchins.
So, I will be working with them on that.
Mr. Speaker, broadband, again, something basic that you
definitely need, broadband and cell communications something that is widely
lacking in my area. Last night I was
driving from the coast into Goose Bay to catch the last flight out and I saw a
truck on the road. It is a pretty
desolate stretch of road and when you see a truck, you usually know they are
broke down. When I pulled over this
was a man from Sheshatshiu and his wife and a truckload of small children.
They had broken down on the side of the road.
He had a radio in his hand. I
am not sure what he was trying to do with the radio, but I can tell you, where
he was nobody was going to hear him.
Luckily for me I do travel very equipped, so I had the
plugs and I had everything he needed.
I was in a hurry to catch the flight, so I gave him everything he needed
to fix his tires. If it is too
costly upfront to put the cell service in place, why can't we have the Wi-Fi?
Most people now have the phones, they have the iPods, and you can just
message someone and you can tell them where you are; because if we are talking
about safety, this is all about safety.
We live in a piece of the Province where we have very
harsh weather conditions, snow storms.
I left the community of St. Lewis on Saturday night and I thought I was
in a storm in March very stormy, and here we are in the middle of May.
These are the reasons why we need this infrastructure in place, Mr.
Speaker. So I will continue to lobby
for broadband.
When I think about businesses, many times I have stood
and I have tried to convince government that if we had a tourism development
officer in the district, the revenue that could be brought in, what a valuable
investment. We are sitting on a gold
mine in terms of tourism and I cannot understand how people cannot see that.
We have tourists who come to places like Red Bay and Battle Harbour and
it is unlike anything they have experienced.
I have been to Alaska, Mr. Speaker, and I do not know if there is
anything in Alaska that compares with what we have, if we had the funds and we
had some infrastructure and we were able to market that in terms of our icebergs
and our whales and everything.
Yet, Mr. Speaker, businesses are trying to do what they
can on their own and are not even able to get on the Internet.
Can you imagine? In
L'Anse-au-Loup, the biggest community in my district, there is a business there
that is experiencing great frustration because they cannot even use their
Interac with a debit card in 2014.
This same business is looking out their front window and all day long they are
watching traffic go back and forth to Muskrat Falls.
Despite what Nalcor said about their equipment is going in by boat, what
about all the subcontractors?
That is the reason people are so frustrated.
They know the billions of dollars that is happening a few yards from
them, yet our people continue to live in poverty.
Sometimes, yes, you hear them talking about separatism and everything
else and sometimes you think you just cannot blame them for that.
There is certainly a lot of inequality, injustice, unfairness, and it has
been going on for quite a long time.
It is very, very, very unfair, Mr. Speaker, that you can have a small Province
and the disparities that exist between the Island and Labrador, the gap is so
wide. We have a long way to go in
terms of bridging that gap.
We have a new government now in Quebec, and hopefully
we are going to see Route 128 connected and that is going to be a link out for
Labrador. I believe then the Island
is going to see that we should have done this fixed link a long time ago and
then they are going to be hurrying to catch up.
Mr. Speaker, the health care is a huge issue and there
are a lot of things that we can do to improve the life of the people in that
area and save money to health care.
We know that we are already spending forty cents on every dollar and clearly we
are not meeting the need. Mr.
Speaker, if we had some of this communication technology in place that I just
referenced, it would certainly go a long way in terms of helping with health
care. Every time somebody from a
coastal community flies to St. Anthony, they go on a voucher that is subsidized
by the provincial government, but here is the problem, Mr. Speaker: they get on
a flight and they travel to St. Anthony on that voucher, they come back, and
when the result of their test comes in, they get on the plane and they travel
again. Many people have said to me:
Why can the results not be given to you by telephone, or why can you not go sit
in your community clinic, sit in front of a TV screen and talk with your doctor?
Thousands of dollars, Mr. Speaker, could be saved that way.
I do not know why people are not looking at this.
I do not know why government is not looking at ways to save money;
looking at ways to spend smarter, thinking outside the box.
There are so many areas we can see room for improvement.
Like I have said here before, after all the room for improvement is the
biggest room in the house, isn't it?
The problem is, Mr. Speaker, people are not talking
with the people on the ground.
Decisions are being made up here that impact the people down here.
The people who are using the system, they see every day where
improvements can be made.
I see them when I am in the district because I live
there, too, full time. I use the
same services they use, and I often reference it.
When my family has an incident or an accident, I am using the same
system. I am getting to see where
improvements need to be made and if protocols and policy that are in place are
already working, because I am not taking my child to the Health Sciences Centre
down the road or I am not in here, I have the same issues as they do.
Their issues are my issues, so I understand clearly where their
frustrations are, Mr. Speaker.
I want to mention our youth, Mr. Speaker, our most
valuable resource in so many ways.
May is a month of graduations. Every
weekend when I am back in my district I am attending a graduation.
That is one of the nice things we get to do as a member, to see these
youth who have so much potential.
They are the ones who are going to lead the way.
They are the ones who are going to change a lot of this.
I really believe that, Mr. Speaker.
Right now, we have youth from Labrador who are all over
the world working in all different kinds of sectors.
In the communities they have so little in the way of resources.
In most towns we do have a community recreation centre.
They kick the ball around, they stick handle the puck around, and then
they do it up nicely and have their graduation there.
Mr. Speaker, one of the things I have been lobbying for
is a family resource co-ordinator in the community of St. Lewis.
One of the bigger communities in my area and it has nothing for children.
We already know the benefits of the family resource centre program.
It is a program that provides services for children, birth to twelve
years old. We know how effectively
they are working in other communities in terms of educating parents about child
raising; in terms of educating them on obesity, how to eat healthy, bullying,
and educating the parents.
All of this is an investment into children.
Mr. Speaker, when you invest into children it pays off in dividends, it
certainly does. Many times what we
are talking about is such a small, small amount of money, Mr. Speaker, and I
will continue to push for that. We
have been months working on that file and I am hoping we are going to hear
something positive in the very near future.
When I was on to transportation, Mr. Speaker, I did not
mention the dust control. I know I
have stood many times, and I will continue to do so, urging government to
replace the pavement. Route 510, in
L'Anse au Clair to Red Bay, is seventy-six kilometres, thirty-five years old.
We did do a patch-up job again on it but that is just a temporary.
We cannot wait until the rest of the pavement is done to address that.
Down in Southeast, because the two parts of the
district is very divided, and half of the district is a little more advanced in
terms of infrastructure. Down in
Southeast, a small amount of money to dust control on provincially-owned gravel
roads, I could not believe last year when the funding was cut.
I do not know what the rationale was, but I can tell you many people have
suffered issues with health since that time, Mr. Speaker.
It is very, very sad; breathing, respiratory, and the list goes on.
It is like a sandstorm.
Unless you have been there, unless you have walked it on a hot day, you
cannot appreciate what this has taken from the people in terms of quality of
life. When I tell you, you are just
listening to me explain it to you but I have been there and walked through the
communities last June.
It is absolutely ridiculous that we have lost something
that was such a small amount and was making such a huge difference in those
communities that have so little. I
believe $700,000 was the amount that was spent on provincially-owned gravel
roads in the whole of Newfoundland and Labrador.
So I imagine it was much less than that in Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
I will continue to stand and push.
If there are environmental concerns about calcium,
which is what the minister referred to, then let's look at some other form of
dust control. Surely we can do
something to protect the health of the people.
Those people who are breathing in that heavy dust end up in the hospital
and then they have a diagnosis. Look
at the money you are spending then when they are back and forth and they are
getting treated for different things.
Really, it all ties together, Mr. Speaker, and I will continue to raise
that issue.
Mr. Speaker, the Mealy Mountains Park in Cartwright is
a file that has been open for years now.
I spoke with the minister's office just today wondering what the holdup
is. That community was told in
November that 99.9 per cent of it was done.
We are a long time waiting for some news on that 0.1 per cent.
I understand from talking with the office today that
Aboriginal consultations have to be done yet.
There is no time frame, we do not know when, we do not know how
extensive, but Cartwright is positioned there as the gateway for Mealy Mountains
Park. That is going to pick up a lot
of rubber tire traffic. Every small
thing is a huge thing to keeping the life of a small community alive, Mr.
Speaker. We cannot wait; we really
cannot wait to see we need to push.
That land needs to be transferred over from the Province so that we can
get on with this.
I will take my seat now, Mr. Speaker, but I look
forward to continuing to speak on district issues.
Thank you.
MR.
SPEAKER (Littlejohn):
The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to stand here this
evening and be involved in the Concurrence debate.
I am going to talk mostly about Transportation and Works and how the
department works and some of the things we have been doing, certainly in this
past Budget and over the last few years.
Before I do, I would like to address some of the
comments that were made by the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace, as well as
the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
I appreciate the comments from both, but I have to say I find it very
frustrating that you can stand up especially Carbonear Harbour Grace, where
in the last six years there has been over $800 million invested in that
district.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
How
much?
MR.
MCGRATH:
Over $800 million in that district.
It is frustrating to sit here and listen to that when
you have $800 million that you know was invested.
I know, Mr. Speaker, there is more work to be done, as there is
everywhere in the Province, but to hear somebody stand on their feet for twenty
minutes and talk about all the things that we are not doing.
There was one mention of one thing, and that was in Bryant's Cove, that
we finally got right, and he was appreciative of that.
He talked about High Road North, and I have to correct him.
I have checked with the officials in my department, Mr. Speaker
MR.
JOYCE:
Are
you sure? The last time you checked
(inaudible).
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
JOYCE:
Are
you sure?
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Member for Bay of Islands is doing what he does
best over there now and just cackling, but he can do that.
I do know the facts here, and I know that High Road North is not part of
the provincial inventory. We have
10,000 kilometres in roadwork throughout the Province and High Road North is not
part of that, so I would just like to clarify that for the Member for Carbonear
Harbour Grace. We have checked and
the municipality has been taking care of that.
He mentioned the line painting.
I have to mention that line painting last year, most of it throughout the
Province, was not done and for a very valid reason.
Every employee who works in the roads program, summer maintenance
program, in the Department of Transportation and Works, every employee last
summer was recertified for Occupational Health and Safety.
We all know last year that we had a bad fatality on the highway.
When that happened, I was the Minister of Service Newfoundland and
Labrador at the time and we saw the necessity then to have certifications done
and upgrading done in the certifications and there was a stop-work order put in.
Many places I get it in my own district; I was
getting hassled just last weekend about painting lines on the highway in October
when they were brushing snow off. It
cannot be done. There was a very
good reason for line painting not being done, and it is something that we are
very aware of and we are addressing this year.
I heard him talk about Bristol's Hope and the road
between the beaches. We are aware of
the problems there. We understand
the safety implications involved in that and we are watching it, as we are
throughout the whole Province, and we will continue to do that.
One of the things that I heard him talk about was
Victoria and the growing community.
I remember during the by-election that Victoria was one of the communities that
I happened to go knocking door to door.
I knocked on every door in Victoria.
I think it was the Minister of Natural Resources was with me that
evening. I made the comment of what
a beautiful, scenic, picturesque and rich-looking community Victoria is.
It is an absolutely beautiful community, and it is growing vibrantly.
You have to realize that when that is happening, so the tax base and all
of these things have to be taken into consideration.
He did mention about the multi-year capital works
program and how the minister this year, they are getting over double.
He acknowledged that, and I was glad to hear that.
I just want to let the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace know that we
are listening and we are acting. I
have had a lot of abuse in the last few days, but it is disturbing when you hear
members across the way use words like vindictive.
We are not a vindictive government, we listen to everybody, and in every
district we do our best for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and we will
continue to do that. So I just want
you to rest assured, to the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace, we will
continue to do that. We will
continue to listen and we will continue to try to work with you.
It will not be in a vindictive way.
Talking about Cartwright L'Anse au Clair, I am going
to start that she acknowledged there are nine more people in her district who
just got jobs in Muskrat Falls. Yes,
Labrador is booming. I am very proud
to say Labrador is booming and I am proud to be a part of that boom.
There are nine more people in her district who just got jobs in Muskrat
Falls. These are very high-paying
jobs, but what she forgot to mention is that they are utilizing the
Trans-Labrador Highway to transport from home to the job.
They are very happy to have that road
because they can go back and forth now at their leisure.
They do not have to worry about catching flights or waiting on flights;
they can actually use that.
She talked about Williams Harbour.
We are working with Williams Harbour, as we are with other municipalities
throughout the Province, on resettlement.
There are sixteen people there and they have decided they want to
resettle. We are listening to that
and we are working through the process of that.
I have to talk about the fixed link, because do you
know what? I would love to see a
fixed link. I heard the Member for
Cartwright L'Anse au Clair mention, on many occasions, that a fixed link and
the ferry service on the Coast affects every Labradorian every day.
I am not sure I agree with that.
Although members and my constituents certainly do use the ferry service,
they also realize that at certain times of the year you are taking a risk
because you are dealing with ice conditions.
I can guarantee you that the 2013-2014 winter season has certainly shown
us what Mother Nature is capable of doing.
So, in my district, which I think is the largest
populated district in Labrador, I have about 12,000 constituents.
The second largest district is Happy Valley-Goose Bay, Lake Melville.
My colleague has about between 10,000 and 11,000 people.
The whole population of Labrador is 27,000.
In those two districts you have approximately 23,000 people.
They realize that at certain times of the year, you cannot use the ferry
service, or you cannot always depend on it because of weather conditions.
Not because of the service we provide, because of weather conditions.
She brought up the icebreakers again.
It is a federal issue. We
work and we advocate with the federal government every day on the Coast Guard
providing us with icebreaker service, and we will continue to do that.
I am not going to get into the fishery she talked about the shrimp
cuts. I thought it was absolutely
wonderful that this government put together and formed an all-party committee to
go to Ottawa, from all three parties who spoke about it here the other day in
the House of Assembly. I thought it
was a very positive report. So we
are working together, and these are examples.
Tourism I have to have a little chuckle at the
tourism because as she advocates to have the tourism officer in her district;
she advocates to have it taken out of my district.
The tourism officer has been based in Labrador West for as long as I can
remember, and as long as I am representing the people of Labrador West in this
House of Assembly I am going to advocate to keep that position in Labrador West.
I think they have done a very good job representing all of Labrador
there.
We talked about broadband and cellular service.
We know that needs to improve.
That is why we just invested over $20 million in the broadband system
throughout Labrador, and we will continue to improve it and continue to invest
in it.
So, we are doing things.
She talked about repaving the highway from L'Anse au Clair to Red Bay.
Just this past Easter weekend, I had my employees on the road maintenance
program in Transportation and Works all work overtime Easter weekend; to go in
and do a lot of maintenance work in her district.
It needed to be done, and I know it needs to be replaced.
I am the first to admit that section of highway needs to be replaced,
like many other sections of the 10,000 kilometres of highway that we have in the
Province of Newfoundland and Labrador that needs upgrading or replacement, but
we cannot get it all done in one year.
I had an $81 million budget this year for my roads program.
I had $852 million worth of asks.
So, I got basically about 10 per cent of the asks to go through the
Province, but we will continue to work away at that.
I mentioned $81 million; that is what we have this year
for upgrades and enhancements to the provincial highways, the roads, and the
bridges. This year, for the first
time, in January I had a pre-commitment from my Cabinet colleagues to pre-spend
and get out early $30 million worth of tenders.
What that did is we got $30 million worth of tenders out early.
By the first week in February, we had $30 million worth of tenders out,
and that gave us the time then within the department my department officials
then could concentrate on getting the other $51 million worth of tenders ready
and out to the public.
I am very proud to say that my department, the
Department of Transportation and Works, by the middle of this month, May, we
will have all of the tenders out.
Normally they are not out until late June or late July.
That caused havoc with the Heavy Civil Association, and we know that.
That caused problems with getting the work done and you were always
dealing with carryovers. So this
government is trying to improve on the services.
We are trying to improve on getting the work out early and getting the
work completed on time.
I think it is only fair that I should let the Member
for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair know, I have $76.3 million in a special fund
for the Trans-Labrador Highway. As
we all know, there was a special fund for that project.
One of the largest projects in road infrastructure that has been taken on
by any government in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador, over 1,200
kilometres of new highway being built.
I am very proud to say that $76.3 million is being tendered this year.
I am coming out very shortly with a tender for another
eighty kilometres in the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair's district.
I am coming out to get another eighty
kilometres in her district done this year for upgrading and stone.
Then they say we are not listening and we are not working with them.
That is eighty kilometres from Lodge Bay going north to Cartwright
Junction. So we are listening and we
are working with you. I think we are
working in a positive way.
We have $71.5 million for ferry vessel replacement and
maintenance. Now, we just put out
two tenders. We have a new ferry on
order that will be here in September, 2015 for Fogo Change Islands.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
A
brand new, state-of-the-art ferry.
We have another ferry coming out in February, 2016 for
Bell Island. We are also going to be
making large investments in the docking terminals and the wharf systems at both
of those facilities to accommodate those ferries.
Again, for the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair,
I have just had a tender go out and that tender will be awarded in the very near
future for two more ferries. One for
the Strait of Belle Isle and one for the North Coast of Labrador in the Torngat
Mountains District. Two districts
that are represented by the Opposition.
Are we listening? I think we
are listening. Are we acting?
I think we are acting. On top
of that, on top of those two ferries
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
MCGRATH:
Mr.
Speaker, on top of those two ferries that we have coming out there, the RFP is
out for that. On top of that, we
have put together again, the first time in the history of the ferry system on
the Labrador Straits and on the North Coast a fifteen-year service, a full
package put together. So whoever is
fortunate enough to get that fifteen year contract, they will be putting new
ferries in there. They will be
putting a new passenger service in there.
They will be putting a new freight service in there.
They will be responsible for the reservation system.
The one company is responsible and able now to manage
the whole system, rather than it being piecemealed in five different contracts.
To me that makes a lot of sense.
Are we listening? Yes we are
listening. Are we acting?
Yes we are acting.
I hear the Member for Bay of Islands over there.
I challenge him, when I am sat down I am going to use up my time.
I will not give him my time.
I challenge him to stand up and argue differently with me that any time he has
placed a phone call to my office that I have not acknowledged him or not acted
upon what he has asked me to act upon.
Maybe not always in a positive way, but I challenge him to stand up in
this House of Assembly and say different.
I have always acknowledged him, and I will continue to
MR.
JOYCE:
(Inaudible).
MR.
MCGRATH:
When I am done. Mr. Speaker, I am
not going to give up my time.
MR.
JOYCE:
(Inaudible).
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Works.
MR.
MCGRATH:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
As I said, I have always acknowledged him and I have
always acted upon his requests, and I will continue to do that.
I will continue to work with him in a positive way.
Some of the other things we have done; you look at the
Confederation Building. I remember
during Estimates, I was a bit taken back during Estimates because in actual fact
I only got halfway through my Estimates.
I looked at my colleagues and they had three hours, and for the first two
hours-and-fifteen minutes I listened to a member ask me questions, then answer
the questions and then comment on his answers.
I was not sure what my role was.
At one point I said: Well, you have already answered those questions so I
am not sure I have to.
Then for the next forty-five minutes I was drilled on a
particular issue and when the member thought he had what he was looking for, he
stopped. I looked my colleagues and
I looked at a full complement of professionals I had brought with me to answer
the questions in case I was not capable, a full complement of professionals with
me, and not quite two-thirds of our way through the Estimates book they said we
are done, thank you very much. We
were listening. I was bit baffled,
but that is okay. We will continue
to listen.
I am going to run out of time, I see I am getting
short. Just another couple of little
things that I would like to mention.
When I say little things, like $32.7 million that is going into the building.
You look at this building here, and one of things, as I was saying, that
came up in Estimates was the condition of the building.
I heard the members from the Opposition talking about how the cost has
escalated on the repairs to the Confederation Building.
As the Minister of Transportation and Works, my
department and I shared pictures with the Opposition during the Estimates.
They say a picture talks a thousand words.
Well, I can guarantee you these pictures talked millions of words because
it was frightening to see the work that was done in the building.
You have no choice, I do not care if it is a
Progressive Conservative government, if it is a Liberal government, or if it is
an NDP government, it would be unsafe to leave the building in the condition it
was in. As we all know, we were
replacing the windows. When they
started to replace the windows they realized all of the limestone had to be
replaced around the windows.
When we got into the tower, when we took off the outer
face on the tower and I saw the pictures of what we were underneath every day
it was frightening. I shared those
pictures with the Opposition. I
think they were as amazed as I was, and there was no argument that the work had
to be done. That money that is being
invested is being invested into what I have to say is a very important part of
our heritage.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible) blue windows.
MR.
MCGRATH:
I
hear the member from across the way talking about the blue.
I only have less than a minute left.
The rationale of the blue tint in the windows is to save money.
It keeps the heat out in the summer; it keeps the heat in, in the winter.
Would red work?
I do not think so, and I can guarantee you it would not look good.
Orange? Sorry, I am not there
either. To me, blue is by far the
best choice and the most aesthetically pleasing colour that you could put there.
I will not apologize for those beautiful blue windows.
Mr. Speaker, I am running out of time here now so I am
going to clue up. I am sure I will
get an opportunity to stand up again.
I can go on for an hour talking about some of the wonderful things that
the Department of Transportation and Works is doing, the budget that we put out
this year. I am excited for the work
that we are going to be doing and I know that the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador realize and appreciate everything that we are doing.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's East.
MR.
MURPHY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I was going to say something nice about the minister,
but then he said did not like orange, so there you go.
I have to say a couple of things
MR.
JOYCE:
A
point of order, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Bay of Islands, on a point of order.
MR.
JOYCE:
The
Minister of Transportation and Works said I could stand up and I did meet with
the minister three weeks ago. He was
going to give the people of Hughes Brook on the North Shore how much paving was
going to be done to correct the unsafe conditions.
They are still waiting.
MR.
SPEAKER:
There is no point of order.
The hon. the Member for St. John's East.
MR.
MURPHY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I agree with your ruling.
I wanted to say something about the minister because, of course, I know
that over the last couple of weeks he has been having a bit of a hard time in
the House. I know that the whole
issue of Humber Valley Paving has gone to the Auditor General, as it should.
I know that he is responsive to concerns.
I can certainly attest that while he was Minister of Service NL when we
were pushing for move-over legislation in this Province to protect highway
workers, he was more than agreeable to that.
We sat down and had a nice, cordial meeting about that and the next thing
you know the law was before this House. It
was probably one of best things that I can say, so far, in my term of service
that this government is after doing when it comes to the protection of workers.
So, I do know about his responsiveness when it comes to
that. Sometimes, I guess, we
question the way that government pushes its policy; but when it comes to
responsiveness, I will say about the minister that while so far the jury is out,
I will give him top marks on the rules when it comes to the move-over
legislation.
I have to say, first off, that I did not make it to the
Transportation and Works Estimates Committee this time around.
I had a pressing family matter that was ongoing that night.
I want to thank the research staff in our party who gave us a very
thorough briefing on what happened in Estimates that night.
So I want to thank the staff who work in my office who are very hard
workers and very diligent about taking notes.
They did give me a good briefing with regard to what happened.
Especially the monies that have been sunk into the Confederation Building
here, they did give me some very vivid descriptions on exactly what has been
happening with this building.
I have to concur with the minister that this place was
ready to fall down around your ears.
I can only attest to when you go out through the back entrance of the building
here, the old Bank of Montreal entrance, you can see the cracks in the corners
of the building where it looked like brick work was going to be letting go.
I am only too glad to know that the government is having to spend some
money in it to correct the inequities, I guess, of the mid-1950s when this
building was under construction back then.
In some cases, Mr. Speaker, while you agree with some
things that government does do, you disagree with other things the government
has done in the past. I can
certainly speak to one particular matter because this whole night started off
talking about provincial revenues, provincial royalties, that have come into the
government's hands since 1997.
At that particular time the Member for Kilbride stood
on his feet and he mentioned $14.7 billion, with a B, but he forgot another
important component of revenue that was taken in and used by particular
departments, namely Transportation and Works, and that would be the gasoline tax
in this Province which also adds another $2.6 billion to government revenues.
Now we are up to $17.3 billion, and that would be my point.
Because, at the same time as the minister mentioning about the amount of
dollars that are put into roads this year, $81 million which is supposed to be a
new record, $76 million as well from the special fund, as they call it I would
certainly like to know more about the special fund.
I think it would be federal monies that they would be talking about.
At the same time, $183 million is projected to be picked up by this
government this year in gas tax revenue.
Overall since 1997, like I said, we are dealing with
two Administrations. We are dealing
with the Conservatives and we are dealing with the Liberals back in 1997 when
oil first came in on shore. That is
great, fine and dandy. What we did
not see was a plan for that revenue when it came to roads.
Hence, the minister stands on his feet and he says he had $852 million in
asks: roads, bridges, that sort of thing in this Province that is sorely needed.
The Auditor General in his report to the House of
Assembly, in his last report, talked about over $800 million in bridge work
alone, in culvert work, that is obviously going to have to be done by this
government and the next. We now have
to have that very stringent need for a plan to deal with the road and bridge
situation in this Province. While he
says $852 million in asks on the part of the people of the Province
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
MR.
MURPHY:
What was that?
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
MR.
MURPHY:
Certainly, I do not think, it does not include the amount of monies that the
Auditor General is talking about.
You have about $1.6 billion and this is altogether alone, just on that basis
alone, that because they do not have a plan, we are now that far back in our
work that now they are having to play catch up with the little bits of money
that is coming in. It is no wonder
they are pressing for other sorts of revenue, for example, like the Muskrat
Falls Project that is supposedly supposed to be the end of our financial woes
when oil runs out. We still do not
know whether solar is going to take over the world, or we do not know whether
wind energy is going to be taking over the world, or we do not know if the
titanium battery is going to have an impact.
If you look down to the New York State, for example,
there are talking about using titanium batteries now in most of their
transportations systems down there, then if the power goes out they are not
going to need electricity for a nice long time.
So, we have emerging technologies, too, that we should be looking at and
that we should be cautious over before we go ahead and invest in things like
electrical projects that would probably take twice as long to pay for under the
government's thinking than what they actually think, and at the same time make
social programs pay for it in the end.
Because of the simple fact that we do not have a plan
for roads, I say to the minister and I say to the government and the Auditor
General said that it appears that since 2003 it was nothing but pure neglect and
that is why we are in this situation now.
It is particularly noticeable since 2003 that we did not see that
strategic investment in roads and bridges.
Where else can we look to say that there was probably
no plan when it came to Transportation and Works when it came to that, when it
came to this government? We can say
certainly that it came about in the ferry system.
We are seeing some changes now because of necessity.
Because of necessity we are seeing I will use the term panic spending
here; not to say that these are not good investments in the boat, but they have
to do it now because of maintenance problems, because of the age of the boats.
The minister can stand on his feet any time he wants
to. I will grant him leave to stand
up and tell us the average age of the old boats that are out there now.
He will stand up and he will tell you that they are pretty close to fifty
years old.
The Auditor General, back in one of the reports, I
think it was in 2001, when she came out with the Auditor General's report back
then, said that there should be no boat amongst the provincial fleet any older
than twenty years of age. Now we
have several boats out there that, as far as I am concerned, they may meet some
of the requirements as regards inspections, but they have overdone their
usefulness.
We have some new boats coming out now for Bell Island.
We have new boats coming out now for Fogo, but we have not heard a word
from the minister as regards smaller boats that they had designed I think it was
back in 2000-2001, the boats that were designed by a Netherlands company, Knud
E. Hansen, I think was the name of the company, that was supposed to come out
and these were supposed to be the basis of the new boats that the provincial
government was going to be getting and adding into the fleet.
All the South Coast and some of the Northeast Coast, the smaller boats,
have yet to see any replacement here and we have not heard a word from the
minister on that. So, where are
they? We have not seen it in this
Budget.
We need to see strategic investments in boats as well.
Keep in mind $4.7 billion is what the Member for Kilbride stood up and
said in royalties since 1997 and if we are a growing population, I have no doubt
that we have a growing tax base. We
have small businesses out there that are doing very well and contributing their
share. We know that there are other
means that government, of course, is raising revenue.
Again, like I said, I will come back to the gas tax; $183 million this
year and the projection, every year since I looked at it, every year since 1997
that gas tax revenue has increased year over year with the exception of one year
where it was about $500,000 less, that being in the year 2003-2004.
Where do we go?
Obviously when we are talking about a plan for roads, sometimes besides
dealing with the cost of asphalt, I think, is probably one of the constraints
that government is dealing with. I
think that it is probably time that this government look a little bit more
towards recycling and what we can do with regard to using our own resources when
it comes to roads.
I will give you a good example of probably one of the
biggest wastes of taxpayers' money when it comes to recycling, as far as I am
concerned, was getting rid of the tires that we had stacked up in Argentia.
We had about $6 million the contract was let out for, for the disposal of
tires. What happened to the tires?
The tires all went off to Quebec to be burned in a Quebec factory oven up
there. Instead, what we could have
been doing was taking these tires as they do in the United States and right
now in the United States they have about 22,000 miles of roads.
One of the things that they mix in with the asphalt to make the roads
last longer is rubber from the tires.
They recycle tires and they put it into roads.
We do have some resources here to drive down the cost
of asphalt. We do have ways of
creating jobs, creating green jobs in this Province by breaking down old rubber
tires. We already know that the
consumer, the taxpayer out there, is being dinged out there for $3 a tire right
now, and he or she would like to see a more constructive use of that particular
item. Again, it is a resource that
is already here in the Province. It
is there, it is readily available, and we know what is happening to it year
after year. It is going off to a
Quebec factory to be burned, secondary for energy.
That is not anybody's idea of recycling, Mr. Speaker,
and that is where we lose it. We
think that we can take this resource and I will call it a resource, because it
is an untapped resource. It is sent
out in its raw form. For example, a
tire, somebody else uses it to convert it into energy, probably gets it for next
to nothing, and they take it and they burn it.
So they do something to the atmosphere at the same time, and they make
themselves a little bit less reliant on an import of some other form of energy
that they would probably be burning too.
I do not think that is really responsible when it comes to that, when it
comes to recycling.
I will say to government at the same time, one of the
initiatives that I thought really positive about I think it was a small
initiative that government mentioned about the Multi Materials Stewardship
Board, that they were going to be coming out and they are actually looking for
some papers, some proposals, if you will, that will ask the government they
would get a small bit of research money from the government in order to put into
various recycling projects, that sort of thing.
One of those could potentially be for the recycling of tires into
pavement to make our roads last longer, and God only knows if they have been
neglected for ten, fifteen years like I said, the Auditor General says since
2003. So, we will go with eleven
years.
God only knows that if eleven years ago some of these
roads had tires mixed and used along with asphalt, maybe some of these roads
would be lasting longer. So maybe
you will not be dealing with a five-year revolving program of roads, or a
seven-year revolving program for road maintenance, that sort of thing.
Maybe we will be dealing with a ten-year program so that maybe, just
maybe, government might be able to take that $183 million in gas tax and take a
piece of that and probably give back to municipalities where they need it; or
probably be able to give to homelessness efforts, for example, in this Province,
where it is sorely needed; or be able to give it to some groups like, for
example, the CNIB so that they can go and they help train workers who might be
disadvantaged by the lack of vision.
The vision health study, by the way, to the government,
is one of the more interesting documents that I ever read about the costs for
something like that, the costs to the economy, if you will, by not enfranchising
somebody with the power of being able to learn because they are blind.
I think that it is a vast untapped resource out there when you are
talking about the need for more workers out there right now with the shortages
that we have.
I want to come back and talk a little bit about that
$14.7 billion in royalties since 1997 because the member also mentioned about
the Bay du Nord discoveries out in the Flemish Pass.
I think that this is where it comes in when we are talking about Service
NL and we are talking about safety.
I witnessed a CBC report, for example, just on the
fishery, talking about the lack of on-site visits.
We know that we are talking about a mobile job site.
Yes, we are talking about a fishing boat, but at the same time, the lack
of inspections that were happening with fishing boats.
Let's go and take it further offshore when it comes to the Bay du Nord
oil reserves. Let's look at the
future, if you will. What is the
government doing? What are they
going to be able to do to ensure safety happening 400 kilometres out when they
talking about as the Member for Kilbride said in 1,100 metres of water?
Look what happened in the Gulf of Mexico.
Let's make a couple of comparisons because the first thing that we are
going to be dealing with is the cleanup, no doubt.
We could be talking about search and rescue, but we know that we are
lacking sorely in search and rescue services.
We know that. We know, as an
industry, the industry itself had to go out and contract services for search and
rescue. We know that we are going to
have to go further out to explore for resources.
We are going to need more people here to do it.
At the same time as bringing in all of that revenue, we
are going to have to consider things like the safety that is going to be
happening. The dangers, if you will,
of operating in the North Atlantic in pretty much I will not say uncharted
waters because they are not, but in places where we have not gone before.
Let's remember going back into the Gulf of Mexico when
it comes to the loss of personnel they had when the Deepwater Horizon was lost.
They lost 4.9 million barrels of oil.
They are still dealing with some severe issues when it comes to their
coastline. We lost eleven people
down there. It was no small
accident.
We remember the people who we lost on the Ocean Ranger,
the dangers of working in deepwater.
We recognize the people that we lost on Cougar 491.
We know that accidents are going to happen, but if we have the safety
mechanisms and everything out there, we know that if we give it 110 per cent
when it comes to worker safety out there, we would know that if we did lose
somebody, it was not because we did not lack any investment into their safety.
I just wanted to make government aware of that when it came to workplace
health and safety.
I want to touch on something that I ran into just a
couple of weeks ago. Of course, I
talked about this in the House, I think it was in the last session, November or
December, just before the House closed in the last session, I talked about
workers and I talked about what was happening with some workers out there.
I dealt, in one particular case, with a worker that I knew who had
several back surgeries and he was still out of work.
He had a very invasive back surgery that was done and because of the
surgery that he had, it in itself was debilitating to the point that the work
that was done on him became an impediment for him to work.
At the same time as saying that ,while he was suffering
back pain and was lying on his back most of the time, not being able to sleep in
his own bed, it came upon him to go south of the border to look for an
alternative treatment. He went
south, down to Florida, and ended up with another back treatment and now today
he is pain free.
I want to encourage government, particularly in Service
NL when it comes to workplace, health and safety, that perhaps it is time not
only to look after the worker's family in this particular case, but to look
after him or her as well and start to explore the safer methods of treatment.
That particular treatment was not available here in Canada.
At the same time this person is back on his feet and is a productive
member of society. I wanted to bring
that note forward as regards that.
When it comes to workers' compensation, the Workplace
Health, Safety and Compensation Commission, I wanted to bring out the point of
us fighting workers' compensation claims and workers who are out there trying to
make a claim upon government, there are no workers out there now who are able to
avail of worker representatives.
There is no representation for the worker there.
They have to come with their own representation here.
So, what happens is that
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I am going to remind hon. members if they want to have
a conversation, they can certainly take it outside the Chamber.
Thank you.
The hon. the Member for St. John's East.
MR.
MURPHY:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I thank you very much for the protection, as I see I
only have a couple of seconds left.
I want to be able to bring up the point to government that when somebody goes in
to make an appeal, it is a very serious issue sometimes when somebody is thrown
out of work because of a workplace injury.
It would certainly be nice to see government switch around the policy
when it comes to workers and have proper worker representatives there at all
times to represent workers when it comes to fighting injury cases and
compensation claims.
Thank you very much.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
K. PARSONS:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
It is indeed a pleasure to get up here tonight and
speak on Estimates. That is what we
are talking about here tonight is the Estimate Committees that are set up by
government. It is a great
opportunity for MHAs like myself that really do not see the inside parts of some
of the departments, to see how they work and see the expertise that we have, Mr.
Speaker.
I noticed no members mentioned tonight that it is
amazing, every time I come here I have been at it for six years on Estimate
Committees. I have watched the
ministers and am always impressed with the way the ministers give their answers,
but I am really impressed with employees of our provincial government, our ADMs,
people who are in charge of different departments, the job that they do, how
they are so well in tune to what they are doing and the reasons why they are
doing it.
Just to let people know out there, in Estimates it is a
time for the Opposition, basically, to drill down.
We have an Estimates book here that they come in and go line for line on
everything they are supposed to.
That is what Estimates are about, but they look at different expenditures from
one year to the next. Some years
expenditures are up for some reason and they are down for other reasons.
I tell you, it is very impressive to be here and it is very how do I
say it appreciative of the people who work for our government.
Our public service people are top notch and the employees of this
provincial government are top-notch people and they really know their work, as
do our ministers.
Mr. Speaker, the Estimates Committee that we are on and
the Estimates that we are talking here tonight is the general government sector
and the legislative branch.
Basically, there are three. It is
Finance, Service Newfoundland and Labrador, and Transportation that we deal
with. Like I said, the ministers
come in, with their departments, and they get drilled down on the line by line
and every other thing, but they also do answer policy stuff.
Mr. Speaker, I listened tonight to members of the
Opposition and we are all alike.
That side over there, they are negative and when I say my bit here tonight, I am
going to be positive. I listened to
the Member for Harbour Grace Carbonear.
I know he is a new member to this House and everything else, but again, I
was out in his district and I know he works hard for the people in his
district. I know he worked hard as a
mayor beforehand; but, Mr. Speaker, I tell you right now that district, when I
was out there, I was kind of amazed I almost envied it basically.
I know I am getting a lot of work done down in my own district.
I know that I am very pleased with what has invested in my district.
I tell you, when you look at what the Minister of
Finance said tonight, $800 million since 2003 invested in that district.
You get up and complain about a road, a ditch or something like that.
Granted, that is a part of your job and I would do the exact same thing
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
MR.
K. PARSONS:
The
former minister who was out there, a good friend of mine, the only problem that
the minister had is that he is a Habs fan.
That is the only problem I have with that minister who was there.
Mr. Speaker, I have to say that, that district the
member said one good thing about it, one good thing he mentioned about Bryants
Cove and their water getting straightened up.
He did not mention anything about the long-term
MR.
JOYCE:
(Inaudible).
MR.
K. PARSONS:
The
Member for Bay of Islands is here all night long and he is telling us not to
heckle. I have not heckled one
moment here tonight and I ask him to have the same respect for me.
He will talk about us and heckling.
I did not heckle him nor did I heckle anyone, but he brought some
interesting stuff that I think we should we go over.
I think we should look at the long-term care facility in Carbonear.
A huge investment this government has made, and an adult addiction centre
in Carbonear. These are things that
we do need. These are great
investments in our districts.
I applaud the District of Carbonear and the new
school that is out there. I know
there is an announcement for an arena, that is between you fellows out there how
to figure all that out, but I know we have a beautiful one down our way.
I hope that you get the same type of arena that we have in our district.
Mr. Speaker, this government when I look at different
members we have been investing in every district in this Province.
The Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair got up I have a new school
in my district. I am very
appreciative. We are going to get
another new school, Mr. Speaker. It
was announced in the Budget this year, but she got two.
There is $6.6 million getting invested in the school that is there to
finish the construction this year, so that will be three new schools.
So, Mr. Speaker, it is easy to get up and say I am not
getting the roadwork done. I am not
getting this done. There is water
going across the road, but that is happening in all of our districts.
I do not think that there is a member in this House of Assembly who can
get up, since 2003, and say my district was neglected, there was not one cent
spent in it, you did nothing in my district, because it is not true.
When I look around this Province, I look at the
investments we did I remember one news release I went to with the Department
of Transportation and we were looking at all of the investments.
They had a map up there, with little dots all over the place.
The thing that amazed me, it was in every area of this Province.
This government has invested in rural Newfoundland and we are going to
continue. We are going to continue
to invest in
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
MR.
SPEAKER (Wiseman):
Order, please!
MR.
K. PARSONS:
You
get up in your time and say what you have to say.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I ask members to direct their comments to the Chair.
I ask other members to please acknowledge and respect the person who is
on their feet and recognized by the Speaker, and please listen in silence.
MR.
K. PARSONS:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I will address my remarks to you.
Mr. Speaker, when you look at different areas of the
Province, like I said, we are doing major investments.
I am going to just say a few words about each one of the departments that
we had the opportunity to look at in Estimates and listen to what the ministers
had to say and look at the investments that were done.
I will talk a little bit about a few investments that are in my area.
It is amazing sometimes, when you look at some of these departments, we
do not realize how big they are and what they really do.
The first one I am going to look at is the Department
of Transportation. I know the
minister was up and he said about the ask.
I know in my district I would love to have $20 million worth of roadwork.
I would like to have every culvert, every bridge, every road paved, right
on through from St. John's right down to the end of the cape and over to Bauline
and everywhere else. Mr. Speaker, I
have to be realistic of the amount of work that is going to be done in my
district.
This year, there is $81 million worth of upgrades in
roadwork and bridge work and everything else, but an important part that the
minister did mention, he did mention that tenders were out earlier.
Myself and the Member for Conception Bay East Bell Island had our news
release a couple of weeks ago and both of ours, I think, are going in the same
package. I spoke to some of the
contractors that were asking me about it, and they are so excited.
Usually this happens that they do not get out until probably August and
then by the time it gets done, it is September and then we have one month to
probably get it done. We end up
getting these following years it rolls over, carry-over to the following year.
I am hoping that there will be no carry-overs this year.
Area roads that I am going to get done, it is not
exactly what I want. Like I said, I
want $25 million, but I am going to get $1 million or $1.1 million or something
like that. I am very pleased with
it. I hope all the members in the
House will get a bit of roadwork done in their districts.
I know some districts have more roadwork than others.
Fortune Bay Cape La Hune, this lady right here, she is all the time
advocating for her area because she has a lot more roadwork than I do.
I hope that the people in that area will be satisfied with what they
have, but I can tell the people in that area and I can tell the people in most
areas that their members are advocating on their behalf and working very hard to
get what we have.
Mr. Speaker, we would love to have all the money in the
world. We would love to have that
magic wand, boom, and do all the roadwork down in Fortune Bay Cape La Hune, do
all the roadwork out in Harbour Main, but we do not have it.
We have to be very smart with what we are doing and we have to be able to
do a bit at a time. We would love to
if the money was there, I am sure we could do all the roadwork we wanted to,
but the Department of Transportation has a lot of investments to make.
I mentioned this earlier with their vessel replacement
and I had the opportunity again, I said it before, I went down to Portugal
Cove and was there for the announcement for the Bell Island ferry.
I saw how excited the people were.
I know the same thing is happening out in Fogo Island, in that area, that
they are so excited about the new ferry they have coming.
That is not something that we can just, boom, put that ferry in service.
We cannot do it; we would love to do it.
My mother is from Joe Batt's Arm, by the way.
I had the opportunity to go over to Joe Batt's Arm, stayed over there,
what a beautiful spot, absolutely beautiful part of the Island and if anybody
ever gets the opportunity to go over there, it is absolutely gorgeous and one of
the nicest places I was ever to in my life.
They deserve a new ferry. The
people from Bell Island deserve a new ferry.
This year, we are investing $76.3 million to try to get
our ferry situation straightened up.
Would we like to do all ferries in the Province?
Yes, we would. We would like
to have all new ferries in the Province, no doubt about it; but again, the
almighty dollar, it depends what you have there.
If you can spend your money there is a budget and we are trying to do
the best we can. We are putting
money in our roads, we are putting money in our ferry systems, and we are
replacing bridges.
I know the hon. Member for St. John's East was up
talking about bridgework. I will
talk a little bit about bridgework.
In my district, Mr. Speaker, a few years ago, the bridge down in Outer Cove,
going down by the beach down there was, it was not even on my list to get done;
but anyway, when I went over to the Department of Transportation and met with
the minister, it was brought to the concern of the Department of Transportation
that it was a safety issue. They
showed pictures of big slabs that were after falling off the bridge down there
and the bridge needed to be replaced.
Now, I was hoping to get roadwork done here and
roadwork done there, but that bridge work cost $2.5 million.
So, guess what? That was a
priority for the Department of Transportation.
My roadwork, while I wanted to get the ruts fixed on Piperstock Hill and
this done in another place, the priority had to go to safety, and that is what
the Department of Transportation has to do.
If there is an issue out there with safety they
replaced that bridge. I think it
took almost two years to do it, a beautiful bridge down there now and a lot of
people go down to the beach. I know
a lot of people when they use the recreational fishery in that area, they put
their boats down on the thing that is where they go off over on the other
side. We call it the Outer Cove
shore. That is where they go
fishing. It is a great spot to get a
few fish, Mr. Speaker. There are
lots of fish down there.
That bridge needed to be done, it was barred off,
nobody could go down there and again if somebody did happen to go down there
and one of these slabs of concrete happened to fall off, that is our
responsibility when we find out these things.
Another bridge that was replaced in my district was
down in Savage Creek. This one, Mr.
Speaker, was a little bit different.
The government and the Department of Transportation partnered with the City of
St. John's. When it came out that
the department met and there was a lot of flooding in the area actually the
town was cut off a couple of times because where this bridge is to it is right
in the middle of the town and when we have major flooding, the water was coming
down and it used to wash right out over the road.
The town was basically shut off, but it was determined by the City of St.
John's actually when they did their flood-risk analysis, that all this
development on Stavanger Drive and Torbay Road area was increasing the amount of
water that was in these rivers.
What happened was the government and the Town of Logy
Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove approached the City of St. John's and the City of St
John's partnered with the government 50-50 and replaced the bridge.
It cost us $750,000 and now the bridge is down there and the people who
are along that road there are very, very pleased, but that was something that
had to be done. I am sure that most
of the bridgework if it comes down to a safety issue or an issue like this,
there is no doubt where our priorities will be.
While there is a lot of bridges and while there is a lot of things have
to be replaced, safety always comes first when it comes to the Department of
Transportation.
Mr. Speaker, I am just going to speak a little bit
about some of the roadwork getting done in my district and the little bit of
roadwork that was done in the last little while.
In Torbay, there was some roadwork done on the Bauline Line.
The road was in hard old shape up there.
There were a lot of areas where they were putting in the water and sewer
over the years and it was up and down all over the place.
That was done from the Kinsmen Centre right into the
Torbay Bypass Road. On the
Piperstock Hill, one of the ones I wanted to get done first when I was elected,
there used to be water running down in the ruts.
If you had a lot of rain, I tell you it was like two rivers running down
the hill. That has all been fixed.
We have nice shoulders on the side of the road now.
It took a little bit of time, but we got it done.
Mr. Speaker, when I look at transportation needs in my
district and I know every time I get up I probably say something about it, and
that is the investment government made in the Torbay Bypass Road.
What that has done to the whole area is unbelievable.
I would say 50 per cent of the traffic coming up out of Torbay in the
mornings use the bypass road and 50 per cent is on the other road.
The other road, basically the main road coming up out of Torbay, is where
the school is located.
Every morning before the bypass road there would be a
lineup of traffic all the way back right on back to Torbay, probably about five
or six kilometres of traffic every single morning.
Every morning you listen to CBC News, or VOCM, or one of those and they
give their road report, they say it is slow-moving traffic on Piperstock Hill.
Mr. Speaker, we invested $23 million and last year I
never heard once about slow-moving traffic on Piperstock Hill.
That was a great investment.
Not only that, it opened up the whole area.
If I look at development in the towns where I live in Flatrock, in Pouch
Cove, in Bauline and Torbay, we are after increasing in population alone by 20
per cent in the last four years. It
is a great place.
I encourage anybody looking for a new home or a place
to live to come down. It is the most
beautiful district in the Province as far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker.
We have great schools down there.
We have great recreation facilities down there.
We have great fishing down there if anyone wants to catch a cod fish.
I invite all the hon. members to come down, I have a boat, I will take
you out any time at all in the food fishery not any time at all; I am not
illegal.
Mr. Speaker, it is because of the investments that this
government has done that the whole area is really doing well.
When you see growth in small towns, like a town like Bauline, when you
see their growth going up by 20 per cent and their budgets increasing by so much
money I know when I was Mayor of Flatrock, which was six years ago, our budget
was maybe $680,000. This year for
the first time the Budget went up to over $1 million.
For a small community to be able to have $1 million in
their budget to spend on the things that they want to do, there are a lot of
things they want to do. They just
put a new playground in down there.
They invested a lot of money in a playground.
Right now, they are looking at building their own garage.
They have a garage, but they want a bigger one because they are hoping on
getting a loader someday and their snow clearing is second to none.
They are planning on investing in their community.
It is the same thing with the Town of Torbay, the same thing with Logy
Bay-Middle Cove-Outer Cove. Our
economy, I mean we listen to all the negative stuff that is said all the time
negative, negative, negative but you know what, Mr. Speaker?
I believe that there is more positive than negative.
Now, I thought I was only going to be up here for a
little while, but I want to talk a little bit about Service NL.
Mr. Speaker, when you come to the Estimates of Service NL, the one thing
that amazes me so much, people look at different departments in government we
look at Finance, we look at Transportation, we look at Municipal Affairs,
Education, and everything else. I am
not sure, but I believe it is one of the largest departments in government,
because there is so much getting done.
This department has you from the time you are born until the time you
die. That is it.
There is everything in the department.
I know that some of the things I wanted to talk about
in Service NL was the different things that they do related to safety I am
looking for my notes here now, Mr. Speaker, but I know they do a lot with
safety. The Queen's Printer, for
example, downstairs where they do all the printing for government, I had the
opportunity, I spoke one time before on a bill that was here in government, and
I have to tell the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that people who work
down in the Queen's Printer because I know; I was there a lot of time
are fantastic people.
There are lot of times when the Budget needs to be done
and different documents need to be done and they are there in the nighttime
making sure that everything gets there to people.
Sometimes people are expecting all these documents at 8:30 in the morning
and we do not realize how our public service and how our public employees put so
much time and effort to make sure that we get things on time and different
departments get things on time.
Again, I mentioned Vital Statistics.
Again, a very important part anybody who needs a birth certificate or
anything at all, that is part of it.
Also, Mr. Speaker, you look at safety and I know that the hon. Member for St.
John's East mentioned about the legislation that came in here, the move-over
safety, and I had to get up and speak on it.
It is important that we realize that we have to make sure we take care
of, especially our peace officers that are on the road every day, and other
people who are out there working on the roads that they are working in a safe
environment. That was a good piece
of legislation that came in here.
Mr. Speaker, in some rural parts there a lot of centres
I do not know how many there are.
There are government centres in different parts of the Province, and it is like
a one-stop shopping for people to go get their permits and different licences
and approval for inspections and building safety codes, and everything else that
you need to know from government services, that is there.
Mr. Speaker, this is a very important department, and I said most of the
legislation I think a lot of does, anyway that comes into this government
here is tweaking that department and making sure that the people get the best
possible service that they can.
Mr. Speaker, the last department that I am going to
speak about is Finance. I could have
used my full twenty minutes just on Finance, basically, because if you look at
what the Finance department does I only have one-and-a-half minutes, and I
just want to talk about where we have come from.
Mr. Speaker, we have come so far in this Province.
I am looking at our income; our weekly income for people in this Province
is the highest it ever was. Mr.
Speaker, we are second in all of Canada when it comes to the income for
household families and the income that people are making.
I know there was a stat I heard earlier about car
sales. All you have to do is just
drive around Newfoundland and it is not only in St. John's; it is all over
this Province. People are investing
money because they have more money to invest.
Mr. Speaker, that is the result of the investments our
government have made in most of these projects that we are doing.
People are having the opportunity to work.
It is great time for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and it is a great
time for our young people.
Mr. Speaker, our young people are going out there, they
are getting well-paying jobs, and they are getting jobs in engineering.
I never saw so many engineers before in my district.
Every young person, I think, today that I talk to, you say: What are you
doing in MUN? I am doing
engineering. It is a great
opportunity. The opportunities are
here.
I look down at the young people in my district and I
thank this government from them and say listen, thanks for giving me the
opportunity to do what I do. Because
only for the investments that we are making as a government, they would not have
the opportunity to get out to Hibernia, or go out to Long Harbour, or go to
these different areas.
Mr. Speaker, my time is up and I just want to thank
you. Again, we are doing great
things in Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for the District of St. Barbe.
MR.
J. BENNETT:
Mr.
Speaker, you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people
all of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time and that is
where this government is today. This
government has been fooling people with their numbers, with their card games,
their card tricks, about how the economy of the Province has performed and
continues to perform under this government.
Where are we today, with today's Budget?
Actually, it was a relief tonight that we were going to do Concurrence.
It gives us an opportunity to actually talk about the Budget.
Initially, one of the members did talk about the financial indicators in
the Province, and then it seemed to go downhill after that.
Where we are today in this year's Budget is
approximately a half a billion dollar projected deficit.
That is $1,000 for every man, woman and child in the Province, but it
gets worse than that because this government has had to borrow a billion dollars
so they could have a half a billion dollar deficit.
A billion dollar loan is another $2,000 per man, woman and child, so that
really means, Mr. Speaker, that we are going backwards this year by $3,000 per
man, woman and child in this Province and that is the government's own numbers.
That is not my numbers, that is not numbers from an economist, that is
the actual numbers projected by this government in this Budget.
The government keeps playing a shell game with what
they say is while the net debt is getting better all the time, we have these
assets over here and we have these assets over there, so even though we owe more
money we may well owe more money than we have owed in this Province maybe
historically. They say we have
certain debts to offset against it.
Mr. Speaker, to me, that is like somebody who has to go off and borrow I do
not know how much an orthodontist costs today, but twenty-five years or so ago
when I was paying for an orthodontist, it was fairly expensive.
Let's say it is $10,000, $15,000 for an orthodontist, for the taxpayer's
child. Now the taxpayer borrows
$10,000 or $15,000 and says well, I am not really any worse off because even
though I owe $10,000 or $15,000, my kids have really nice teeth.
Well, I am not saying that the child should not have
nice teeth, but I am saying we are only deluding ourselves when we say and by
we, I mean the government that actually we are no worse off because even
though we owe a whole lot more money, we have a whole lot more stuff.
What kind of stuff are we talking about?
Well, Mr. Speaker, one of the items of stuff that we are talking about is
a hydroelectric development that is going to cost eight, ten, twelve, nine,
eleven, billions and billions and billions of dollars and that asset, we cannot
eat that asset. We cannot put it in
the bank. It is there to generate
electricity. It is there to generate
electricity that we do not need and that nobody else wants.
The reason nobody else wants it is because of the
declining price of electricity related in large part to the extra production of
shale gas in the United States. The
actual price has been declining as we are rushing in to borrow all sorts of
money so we can have a development.
So even though we will owe more money, we will have a nice asset, but the asset
will not produce any income for us.
It will not give us any revenue. The
revenue that government is talking about is selling certain amounts that people
may need on the spot market in North America after we get through the line the
line, which is going across to Nova Scotia, is a 500 megawatt line which is less
power than Bay d'Espoir generates.
Of the 500 megawatt line, the Nova Scotians will have 170 megawatts and we will
have 330 megawatts that we would be able to sell from time to time if somebody
wants it, if they do not already have a surplus themselves, if all of those
hydroelectric developments in Quebec that Quebec is selling power for as little
as a nickel a kilowatt when we are going to be paying fifteen or twenty cents a
kilowatt. Mr. Speaker, to generate a
commodity like electricity and then sell it for less than the price to generate
makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Mr. Speaker, one of the items that this Budget includes
is a package, a book on the economy.
If we look at where we have come so far in this Province in the last ten years,
we now have the most bloated government per capita in Canada.
It costs more to govern this Province than any other province in Canada
and that is today with a billion dollar loan this year and a half a billion
dollar deficit.
If we look to the government's own economic indicators,
we can see where we are headed.
Reading this document over the next two or three years or three or four years,
it is almost like reading the book of Revelation if you want to look and see
where the government says we will be in the next few years.
If we look at the drop in our GDP over the past year, our GDP in the past
year into 2014 has dropped from the highest in Canada to the second lowest in
Canada. The Canadian 2014 average
GDP will be 2.3 per cent. Our
Province will be 1.3 per cent. We
will be in second-last place in Gross Domestic Product in 2014, slightly ahead
of New Brunswick and behind every other province.
Mr. Speaker, that is shameful for a government that has
had so much revenue for the last decade, so much revenue to deal with.
Our GPD around 1.3 per cent in 2014 stacks up against Alberta with 3.5
per cent, Saskatchewan for 2.4 per cent, and BC for 2.4 per cent.
The members of this government tend to brag about the past
accomplishments when, really, little has been accomplished, except to collect
oil revenues generated from projects they had nothing to do with and spend those
revenues.
Mr. Speaker, to continue on, more troubling is if we
look at where our economic growth has come from in the last few years.
If we look at major project development and this is the government's
book; this is not me saying anything that government has not produced.
They have produced the book for us to read.
People should read what our major products will look like from now until
2017.
Mr. Speaker, if you look at the number of people who
will be employed in major projects in 2014, it is approximately 10,000 people;
next year, 9,500; and in 2016, 5,500 people 4,000 people drop from 2015 to
2016, and then it gets worse. It
goes down another 2,500 people. In
the year 2017, we are forecast to have 3,000 people employed in major projects
from 10,000 people employed in major projects this year.
What has government done to replace that level of economic development?
Big projects, Mr. Speaker, take time to come on, and we
see no big projects developing. That
is the declining employment level in this Province over the next three years, as
projected by this government. This
is their own numbers. If we look at
the investment in major project capital investments, 2014, $7.5 billion; next
year, $7 billion; the following year it drops to $4.5 billion; and the following
year, $2.75 billion.
MR.
KIRBY:
This is a good news story (inaudible).
MR.
J. BENNETT:
This is the good news story, Mr. Speaker, of this Budget for this government.
They had to borrow a billion dollars so they could have a half a billion
dollar deficit. So, we are in the
high times right now and this is what government is forecasting for the future
in the next two or three years for this Province.
Mr. Speaker, if we look at the economic indicators
found on page 16, if we look at the change in Gross Domestic Product it is on a
straight slide downward over the next three years, and if we look at one of the
key critical indicators for economic growth or the health of any economy is
housing starts. In 2012 there were
approximately 3,800; 2013, a little over 2,800; another 2,800 this year; and
housing starts will decline by one-third from now until 2017.
As of today, there will be a thousand fewer housing
starts three years from now. What
will happen to all of the people who were employed in building homes?
What will happen to all of the people who have borrowed for businesses in
order to have these businesses, these companies, build homes?
How will they replace the revenue?
How will they be able to stay in our Province?
Well clearly, Mr. Speaker, they will not stay in our
Province, because this government, after having a miscalculation over the last
half a dozen years on the amount of population, the number of people we have in
the Province, we are looking at a leveling off and then a gradual slide in
population. I know that somebody
said BS when told the population decline is coming, but this is the government's
own numbers. They are forecasting a
steady decline over the next three, four, five years.
Mr. Speaker, the employment level in this Province from
232,000 this year, it will go up slightly in 2014 from 2013 and then that also
will slide. From 2015-2016 it will
slide by 8,000 fewer people employed; from 2016-2017, 4,800 fewer people
employed. Mr. Speaker, over the next
four years we are forecast to have 13,700 fewer people employed in this
Province, and this is supposed to be a good news story of a government that
borrows money to break even and, in fact, do not break even.
They still fall a half a billion dollars behind.
Mr. Speaker, one of the real tragedies of our time, we
will look back on the gross fiscal mismanagement of this Province by this
government. We have had nearly $20
billion in oil revenues in less than the last decade and we have accumulated
debt and accumulated debt and accumulated debt.
When I hear ministers speak and say yes, we know the roads are pretty bad
and we need to do something about it and we are doing the best we can.
I think the voters are going to say: Doing the best you can just is not
good enough.
We know that we have some awful roads all over the
Province. Government says they are
spending this money here and spending that money there.
It seems like every time there is a criticism government members, and
particularly Cabinet ministers, say but we are spending this money here; we are
spending that money there. In fact,
spending more is not necessarily spending more wisely.
It is not necessarily getting better results, and it certainly is not the
way to go.
Mr. Speaker, this Province is in a straight economic
decline, a straight population decline, and we are in a time of unprecedented
wealth. When this government came to
power the Budget was approximately $4 billion.
Today it is more than $7 billion.
There has been an 80 per cent or 90 per cent increase in revenue, and
what has happened to it? A large
amount of that money has been purely wasted.
It has been wasted by increasing the size of government.
It seems like even in the time of what you would think would be a fiscal
restraint, government within the last handful of days, decided to increase the
size of the Cabinet. We have gone
with even a bigger Cabinet in a time of a half a billion dollar deficit.
Mr. Speaker, the allocation of Cabinet positions seems
to be some sort of a retrenching. It
is almost like we are in some sort of a Third-World government who needs to give
somebody a title because having a title is going to make somebody feel better.
In fact, Mr. Speaker, as we grow the size of government, not only do we
grow the current liability, in addition to growing the current liability, we
grow the future liability and that future liability is for pension liability, it
is for extended health benefits for people for the rest of their lives.
Mr. Speaker, it seems like absolutely no thought goes into the proper and
sound fiscal management of this government.
It seems like if there is a problem, spend more.
If that does not fix the problem, spend even more.
If that does not fix the problem, announce even more programs.
There are categories in the Budget where funds are
allocated year after year after year and not spent.
There are categories in the Budget where the government picks a number as
if, I guess, we will put in this number here.
How much are we going to spend?
Well, we do not really know because we have not actually figured it out,
but we will let you know next year how much we spent.
Estimates have been way off track for so long that they
should not even be called Estimates.
Mr. Speaker, an estimate should be that somebody actually takes stock of the
situation, puts some thought to it and decides then what would be the most
appropriate or the most realistic number to arrive at a particular situation.
Then you estimate and then you recalculate as you go forward.
The type of fiscal mismanagement that we have seen in
this Province has been showcased in this Province in the last couple of weeks
with the revelations about the Humber Valley Paving scandal.
Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is a scandal.
The government entered into a contract in 2012, it should have been
completed sometime in 2013, an extension was required, an extension was
requested; and the contract, which was tabled, clearly said that there is a
process, there is a mechanism which says that if for any reason enumerated in a
certain set of reasons, ordinarily referred to as force majeure reasons, then
the contractor should come to the government with written notice and based on
that written notice, government will provide an extension and would consider
providing some sort of relief. The
company came and asked for that.
The company came and said because we lost a few weeks
in the middle of the summer or early in the summer of 2013, we are going to get
a one-year extension. Less than a
year later, the company is back knocking on the government's door saying: We are
really losing a lot of money on that contract.
Will you please, please let us out of the contract?
Government says that we have protected the interest of
the taxpayers, but I do not know how.
When people enter into contracting, particularly in large capital
projects, in order to be able to bid for a large capital project it is necessary
for a company to be able to acquire bonding.
The bonding company provides a fidelity bond which says that yes, for
this reason or for that reason we will agree that if you cannot finish the job,
we will come in and finish the job.
For that, you pay a fee. This is not
uncommon in the construction industry.
As a matter of fact, it is the norm.
The bonding company says: We will say to the owner
and the owner in this case is the government if they cannot finish, we will
finish. We will hire somebody else
to come and finish that job and we will back charge that on our customer who is
the insured, who is the person who is covered under that bond, in this case
Humber Valley Paving.
What happened?
What happened is that having had the security of having not one but two
bonds totalling $19 million, without providing any reasonable inquiries into the
reason for the required release from the contract, without looking to find out
how many people had their hands out who were owed money by this contractor,
without having as far as we can tell at this point because answers are scarce.
Without having a statutory declaration sworn by a representative from the
company to say we owe no money, we are free and clear, without having all of the
cards on the table and as a result of the answers provided by the Premier of the
Province in the last few days, without even the knowledge of the Premier, the
key player in our Province did not even know that somebody was being let out of
the contract which was worth millions of dollars.
Mr. Speaker, how is that going to come back to the taxpayers?
In contracting, one of the key factors, one of the key
prices in a contract is the cost to mobilize and demobilize.
It means getting everything on site and getting it up and running, and it
means tidying up and cleaning up the job at the end of it.
Most people can understand that, can figure it out quite clearly.
If you have to get on site you have to assemble equipment, you have to
hire staff, you have to get aggregate, and you have to get your bonding in
place. You need to put the job into
place and you have to wind it down at the end.
Does this mean now that because the government
permitted this company to get out of this contract and release them from the
bond, that we, the taxpayers, have to pay all over again for the mobilization
costs? What will that be?
Where is the financial clarity?
Where is the openness?
I appreciate that the Premier said he has written to
and requested the Auditor General to review the situation.
Based on the Auditor General's reports of the last two or three years,
there has been a chronic refrain in the Auditor General's reports which says due
to lack of documentation I am not saying that they did anything wrong, I am just
saying there were inadequate controls.
There were insufficient controls.
There was the Roddickton pellet plant, which is the
forestry diversification program.
There was the College of the North Atlantic, Western Regional Health Authority,
Centre for Health Information. That
is just in the past year. The
Auditor General keeps saying we cannot really audit properly because you did not
put these controls in place. So if
these controls were not put in place for all these agencies and the minister is
unable to provide any satisfactory explanation with the protection of the House
of Assembly, what will there be to audit, and how much money have we lost, and
is this just another example of the gross fiscal mismanagement of this Province
by this government? Mr. Speaker, I
guess we will have to wait and see.
Thank you very much.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Minister of Child, Youth and Family Services.
MR.
JACKMAN:
Mr.
Speaker, maybe it is the lateness of the evening, but I do not know if I
understood anything that happened in the last twenty minutes.
I have to be honest with you.
It is good to be able to get up and speak here on Concurrence with Government
Services, but I have said on a couple of occasions when I got up to speak: I
have more hope for Newfoundland and Labrador than the party across the way has,
Mr. Speaker. I have to say that: I
have more hope.
This weekend I had the pleasure of having our next
leader down on the Burin Peninsula.
One of the things I said to him because sometimes people put the message out
there that it seems that only the Avalon, and the Northeast Avalon in
particular, is the only area in the Province that seems to be doing well.
I think they hope if they preach it enough that people will somehow come
to agree with it.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to tell you, and I told him,
that rural Newfoundland
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
JACKMAN:
Will you tell the big man just to calm it down, Mr. Speaker, while I have a few
words? I respect him when he is up
speaking, and I would ask that he do the same thing.
Mr. Speaker, I said to him, and I have said to people
before: Rural Newfoundland is doing quite well.
If you come and you spend time on the peninsula and go to my colleague,
the Member for Grand Bank, and you travel down to my district and then finish
off the peninsula in the MHA for Bellevue's district, Mr. Speaker, you will find
that our areas are doing quite well.
These are rural parts of Newfoundland and Labrador.
I am sure my fellow colleagues who sit behind me and sit beside me in
this House on this side, we believe and we see evidence of it that rural
Newfoundland and Labrador is doing quite well, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
JACKMAN:
I
want to point out just a couple of things.
Mr. Speaker, we toured the Cow Head facility, which is the fabrication of
one of the modules for the Hebron project.
I had thought there was something around 500 people working there.
In fact, there are about 700 tradespeople, another eighty or ninety
working in the offices, so there is about 800-plus people working down there.
The thing that struck me, quite opposite as to what the Member for St.
Barbe talked about, what struck me with this tour and I have toured it several
times is you are seeing more young people working on that site.
Mr. Speaker, when he talks about the future for the
young people in our Province, these are young people working on a project right
here in Newfoundland and Labrador because of benefits this government negotiated
around Hebron. Then, if you take
from that site, and I will go down to the Member for Placentia and look at how
many people are working at Long Harbour, then look into Bull Arm, these are
projects that are happening right here in Newfoundland and Labrador employing
the majority of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, Mr. Speaker, and it bodes well
for the future.
As much as some people might want to discount the
fishery, Mr. Speaker, I am not one of them.
I served in the Department of Fisheries for two years.
I will say that it is one of my proudest moments in government because I
do believe that the future of the fishery in this Province is bright.
There are not going to be as many people into it, but those people who
are into the fishery will do quite well and it will serve this Province quite
well. There is absolutely no doubt
about it.
We met this past weekend with the Burin council, we met
with the council in Marystown, and we met with some people in the northern part
of the district to see what is happening there around health care.
A new clinic is being built in the northern part of my district that will
serve my district and the Member for Bellevue and his residents who live on the
Burin Peninsula.
It was very obvious; one of the things that struck me
with the folks who live in, I would say, one of the rural parts of my district
is that a clinic is being built there and how they are looking to work to
attract a physician, how they will work with Eastern Health to attract a
physician to a rural part of this Province so that they are provided with
quality health care, Mr. Speaker. It
is as simple as that.
Do not go out there and tell these people that their
area is dead. Do not go down around
Springdale and tell them that their area is dead or go to Central Newfoundland,
or on the West Coast or up in Labrador.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
Much alive.
MR.
JACKMAN:
Much alive with many people working, making good incomes, never like it before
in this Province.
Mr. Speaker, I have five children.
I joke with people. I say: We
have done our part for population growth; we have twelve grandchildren.
We are doing our part; but my children, four of them are working here in
Newfoundland and Labrador, and one is commuting back and forth to Alberta.
You do not hear him complaining about it; you do not hear me complaining
about it. We are making our way in
this Province, and they will continue to make their way in this Province.
Mr. Speaker, I have to say, when the Member for St.
Barbe got up and spoke about Muskrat Falls, I think one of the best things about
Muskrat Falls is that it provides clean energy.
The Member for St. Barbe, no doubt about it, is a learned man.
I am sure he did not mention it he has heard of the latest report
that has come out on climate change.
He must have. Anybody who is in the
know and looking at our weather patterns and whatnot will know that our climate
is changing and it is because of manmade pollutions, pollutants that are making
our air quality and creating these catastrophic weather patterns.
For years, we have seen it happen in other parts of the
world, but recently we have seen it happen in our own Province.
We can look back to Igor, look at the downpours that we have had over the
past couple years and how that has impacted the infrastructure.
Mr. Speaker, the member has to recognize that Muskrat
Falls provides clean energy. It is
the type of project that if we are going to see the reversal of climate change,
these are the types of projects that we need on our radar.
These are the types of projects that will do away with pollution emitters
like the one that is out in the Foxtrap area.
We know what that was emitting.
We know that when Muskrat Falls comes online, Mr. Speaker, that will
close down. For my children and the
children of this Province and we even need to think a little bit bigger than
that, for the children of the world these are the types of projects that will
reverse the impacts of climate change.
It certainly will be an economic generator for the
Province, Mr. Speaker. If you are
talking about a legacy project, this is one of the legacies that will see the
future of our children bright, as it generates revenue.
I think equally and probably in the long run more important is what it is
doing for the environment and that it is cleaning it up.
We, as a small Province, when we look at the global
numbers, the global population and looking at our Province of 500,000 people, to
realize that we can develop a project of this nature that contributes to
countering what is happening in terms of climate change.
I think all of us on each side of this House the folks in Opposition
are not going to admit it, but from myself as a minister being a part of this
government, it would be one of the things that I will walk away from government
saying I was proud to be a part of, Mr. Speaker.
I can assure you that. At no
point will I ever say that this project was not the right one to do.
I can honestly say that.
Mr. Speaker, I heard the Member for St. Barbe talking
about that we are a government of no accomplishments.
You just have to shake your head; it makes you wonder.
You have to shake your head and just wonder where the member is coming
from.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
It
is shocking.
MR.
JACKMAN:
Somebody is over there saying shocking.
Yes, I have to agree with him; it is shocking.
Just take a look at some of the things that we have
been able to implement over the past ten years, Mr. Speaker.
He is right. He is right in
one aspect, Mr. Speaker. He did
recognize that we are a government that have made some very wise decisions and
because of it, we have generated revenue; and, then we have invested them.
We have invested them. I will
start by speaking about the fisheries.
One of the things we did as a Department of Fisheries,
Mr. Speaker, was to invest in research.
The new member from Carbonear would recognize, him being a fisherman, is
one of the things we were never quite certain about is exactly what was
happening in our waters. We were
doing some sentinel fisheries; we were doing some pieces of research.
We know the federal government have moved away, very much, from the
research.
Mr. Speaker, what did we do?
We went and leased a research vessel, the
Celtic Explorer, to go out and spend
weeks out on the Atlantic researching so we could have some answers.
Mr. Speaker, I think it is one of the better things we have done in the
fisheries.
Dr. George Rose, who spent these years on that boat,
did the research, led some researchers.
I am very pleased to say the first year we entered into it we did not
have people from our own Province who were on there, because we did not have
them. Do you know why we did not
have them? It is because parents
were discouraging their children from going into the fisheries, Mr. Speaker.
People in our own Province were saying to their sons and daughters: Don't
go into the fishery, there is not a future there.
The member for Mount Pearl may not know it, Mr.
Speaker, the man has never stepped foot in a boat, I doubt, but for someone who
is living in rural Newfoundland, and the member from Carbonear would know, there
is a future in the fishery. There
indeed is a future. Some of the
people
AN
HON. MEMBER:
(Inaudible).
MR.
JACKMAN:
He
knows what fish and chips are, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, to some of the younger fellows who are
serving and getting into the boats in my community, do not tell them there is no
future in the fishery. They are out
there fishing now and they will be fishing into the future.
There is absolutely no doubt about that.
A large part of it is that we continue to do the research so we know
exactly what is happening out in that water.
We know some people are expressing some concerns in
certain areas. Up on the Northeast
Coast they know what they are facing in terms of the crab stocks.
We see what is happening with the shrimp stocks.
We should not be in a position where we guess.
We should be more in a position where we carry out the research and we
know exactly what is happening, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, another accomplishment; I am in a
portfolio now of Child, Youth and Family Services.
One of the things we will be remembered for is identifying a department
specifically to deal with children and youth.
Why? It is because we are not
only playing lip service to it.
Mr. Speaker, we have often, many of us I bet you
every member in this House has gotten up and said that our most valuable
resource is our children. Well, Mr.
Speaker, an accomplishment of this government is we have put in place a
Department of Child, Youth and Family Services focusing solely on what is in the
best interest of the children. A new
department four, four-and-a-half-years old, that still is figuring out its way
in certain files and certain pieces of legislation and whatnot, but the
direction in which it was established and a ten-year strategy that will continue
will see a better provision of services for children and youth in this Province.
I will go back to the department I was previously in
and look at what this government has done for education, and I have repeated it.
People will say they are tired of hearing me say it, but I am going to
say it. I have said it, and I am
going to say it again. Look at the
infrastructure we have put in place in this Province.
As someone stood up earlier and spoke about, it is not
only in Conservative districts that we have built new schools.
We have built schools where they needed to be built, Mr. Speaker.
We built schools where they needed to be built in Labrador, on the Avalon
where we have seen increased population.
We built schools in Gander.
Mr. Speaker, wherever there was the need, that is where we have gone.
I believe the latest, when I left, Mr. Speaker, there
was something like fifty-one major projects going on.
I think there are nine schools in the works now.
Twelve, I believe, have been built.
The projects I am speaking about are not something like $100,000 to put
in ten windows, Mr. Speaker. These
are million dollar projects; $2 million, $3 million, $4 million projects that
will see our children in infrastructure as good as and better than any other
jurisdiction in Canada, I will say to you, Mr. Speaker.
I will say that.
Then, I cannot help but repeating and I have said it
here before, to those members who were in education to look where we have moved
in terms of textbooks. No charges
for textbooks; the elimination of school fees; the introduction of full-day
Kindergarten. Mr. Speaker, all
initiatives aimed at making a better education system for the children in this
Province.
Mr. Speaker, I was at the opening of some of these
facilities in Baie Verte and out in Carbonear, and I will tell you it is worth
anyone's while to walk into those facilities and see what is now offered to our
children. Mr. Speaker, one of the
things I always looked for when I went into school is to see what is happening
in terms of the theatre arts and the music programs.
Go into the music rooms.
I went into a school in Goose Bay when we had the
junior high students taking out their instruments and starting on a new music
program. The comments I heard there
and the comments I hear around the Province I heard from one lady who was a
retired teacher who commented on it.
She could not get over how much resources there were for these programs in the
schools now compared to when she was there.
Mr. Speaker, why? Because we
recognize the importance of the arts.
We recognize the importance of the arts and we have quality teachers, Mr. Speaker. We have quality teachers who provide for education day in and day out. So we have kept the class caps, Mr. Speaker. We have kept the class caps in place. It is all about providing the best quality education that we can for the students of this Province. Whether it be Child, Youth and Family Services or Education, Mr. Speaker, our goal is about directing resources to what we have all spoken about as our most valuable resources, that being our students.
I will close by saying that as much as the Opposition
sometimes will try to point out that there is doom and gloom, Mr. Speaker, we on
this side are optimistic and we know that the future of this Province is bright
and people will be working and living in Newfoundland and Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
time for debate on Concurrence on the Government Services Committee has now
expired. You have all heard the
debate.
Is the report concurred in?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
The report is passed.
On motion, Report of Government Services Estimates
Committee, carried.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
At this time I move, seconded by the Minister of Child,
Youth and Family Services, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the
Whole to consider Bill 1, An Act Respecting Public Interest Disclosure.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
has been moved and seconded that the House resolve itself into a Committee of
the Whole and that I do now leave the Chair.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
On motion, that the House resolve itself into a
Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.
Committee of the Whole
CHAIR (Verge):
Order, please!
The Committee of the Whole will now consider Bill 1.
A bill, An Act Respecting Public Interest Disclosure.
(Bill 1)
CLERK:
Clause 1.
CHAIR:
Shall clause 1 carry?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Member for The Straits White Bay North.
MR.
MITCHELMORE:
Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak again to Bill 1 in Committee,
An Act Respecting Public Interest Disclosure.
During debate I took basically the full hour of my time
to speak to the legislation, and a number of my colleagues had spoken to the
legislation as well. I have some
additional things I would like to put forward before the House in the Committee
process on the whistleblower legislation.
One of the things that was discussed is not only the
length of time that it took, but I want to talk about and I believe one of my
colleagues had talked about an article in
The Telegram, an editorial on how this basically is a piece of copycat
legislation. If I get to the point,
there are very similar comparisons to New Brunswick.
It had talked about that Newfoundland's proposed bill has twenty-nine
sections. Twenty-one of them are word for word matches of the seven-year-old New
Brunswick legislation.
Without going back and reiterating anything that was
said in comparing the actual legislation clause for clause, I could do that but
instead what I am looking at here is let's look at New Brunswick, because I have
listened to other members across the House I believe maybe it was the Member
for Bonavista South talk about how good this legislation was, and others
talking about comparing with other provinces.
Well, we want to look at New Brunswick since it is very, very similar and
basically scrutinize it a little bit because that is important when you are
looking at the committee phase.
We need to look at the New Brunswick provincial
government. When it introduced its
legislation in 2007 it was basically meant to prevent employees from being
punished if they blew the whistle on bosses and colleagues who are breaking the
laws. Similarly, beyond civil
servants in government departments, the bill also would protect employees of
hospital authorities, school boards, Crown corporations.
In New Brunswick's case it included their utility company, NB Power, just
as this piece of legislation would include Nalcor.
There was a real approval of this legislation from the
New Brunswick Union of Public and Private Employees saying that this is a very
good thing because you need to make sure it is a step forward.
It is a step forward to protect employees, but in order to do that you
need to make sure the legislation has the appropriate protocols and mechanisms
in place that truly does protect employees.
If we look at the intent of the legislation, the
copycat legislation that this government took seven years to introduce.
Let's see where the New Brunswick legislation sits.
If we go back to a report by the CBC in February, 2013, that the acting
Ombudsman says only seven calls were received last year and that it has barely
been used. The New Brunswick
whistleblower law was barely used in the five years since it was introduced for
all of the civil servants to report illegal or dangerous actions by their
co-workers, according to the province that was acting in the role as the
Ombudsman.
If we look at the case that it was barely used, and New
Brunswick has a dual option, with just a single option for us to go to the
Office of the Citizens' Representative, I wonder how many calls that office is
going to field. We heard it before
in other pieces of legislation, whether it be Bill 29 where there was continuous
requests, they could not deal with all of those numbers, but really those
amounted to about eleven requests per week.
Last year, already there has only been a couple of hundred or so
requests, as the minister who introduced the bill stated.
The whistleblower legislation in New Brunswick, passed
in 2007, was monitored by the Conflict of Interest Commissioner and that justice
was not busy prior. We look at 2010,
there were just eleven inquires about the act.
The current law prohibits reprisals in New Brunswick, and there has been
no punishment.
Similarly, when we look at the federal government
legislation and when we look at the Canadian whistleblower legislation, it says
it is not as strong as it could be and that what we have really seen from the
federal level is the dismissal of the commissioner.
The person who was responsible was dismissed, basically while under
investigation of the Auditor General, given a golden handshake and went away.
In New Brunswick, police charged a senior bureaucrat
with, basically, the department of aquaculture and fisheries, with obstruction
of justice. There was an anonymous
letter sent to a member of the Legislative Assembly in New Brunswick, an
anonymous letter. There is no way to
indicate that it actually came from a public servant, but it may have.
In the situation here, there would not be any
protection because there would be no ability to send an anonymous letter with
the way this format is set up in the legislation.
It has to be written. Someone
has to put their name attached. That
protection may come out, depending on how it gets referred, whether it gets
referred to the RNC, RCMP, whether it gets referred to the Labour Relations
Agency or a court case. Then the
person's identify, the whistleblower, may not be at the level of protection.
Basically, in New Brunswick it talked about how civil
servants are still uneasy about coming forward with information, about revealing
things about colleagues they may have, because people may not feel 100 per cent
comfortable that they are fully protected.
The Conflict of Interest Commissioner says that they need to toughen the
act to make sure that there are the adequate punishments in place so that if
there is an employee who would retaliate against a whistleblower that type of
action may happen where there could be harassment or where there could be some
level of intimidation that was put forward.
When we look at the New Brunswick Liberals, the New
Brunswick Liberal bills seek to protect whistleblowers and end nepotism.
This is something that the Canadian Press published.
They published that the New Brunswick Liberal Opposition says that it
will introduce four bills in the Legislature.
The Opposition is going to put four new bills in the Legislature aimed at
increasing openness, transparency and accountability, and that would even have
more protection against whistleblowers.
We are talking about something that was published
February of 2014, just a few months ago that seven-year old act, the Official
Opposition is looking at strengthening.
They are looking at finding ways to make sure that they are protecting
whistleblowers so that there are additional penalties put in place for those who
seek to punish members to disclose or intimidate whistleblowers in government
that is what is quoted here to strengthen that public interest disclosure act.
There are a number of other acts too that they are
looking at doing when it comes to ending partisan government advertisements,
nepotism from elected members to disclose immediate family members, and other
things when it comes to the possession of government contracts.
We know that if there is an inadequate process followed, that there can
be significant impacts. So, that one
bill is interlinked with a number of other bills when it comes to the integrity
act, when it comes to what is happening in New Brunswick.
The leader says that they certainly want to restore the faith of New
Brunswickers in their government.
When we look at Newfoundland and Labrador, we really
see a gap when it comes to openness and accountability and transparency from
government. That is where, when we
talk about the process of this bill and that it is going to go through the
Office of the Citizens' Representative, I took some time to look at the annual
report of the Ombudsman of New Brunswick because in it they do a report.
So, I wanted to see the detail of maybe what we would be seeing, since it
is copycat legislation.
In their annual report of 2011-2012, it talks about how
their Public Interest Disclosure Act , which is the copycat legislation of this
whistleblower act, was assented on December 20, 2007 and did not come into
effect until six months later, on July 1.
Interestingly enough, our legislation will come into effect on July 1 as
well. Copycat legislation, right?
The purpose of the act was very similar.
It talked about the wrongdoings.
I will not go through those word for word but when it comes to the actual
act itself, it said that somebody may file a complaint for reprisal and that has
to go with the Labour and Employment Board.
Similar to how if it is a personnel issue, there would be a process in
place, as stated in the act, whether it will be internal through the union
process for a grievance or looking at the Labour Relations Act.
The Office of the Ombudsman is unaware of any activity
under the reprisal section of the act.
They will not know about any of the internal processes that are taking
place because they are the only option, and it is the external option.
If somebody does not actually go that route, then they will not get that
information.
Then, in 2011-2012, we want to look at the statistics
and compare the success of this piece of legislation.
From when we assume the mandate this is what is stated here in the
report of June 2011 when it went to basically what is considered our Office of
the Citizens' Representative to March 2012; the office received five contacts
total under the act. Four of those
contacts were actually inquiries.
They were inquiries that did not amount any further, somebody just seeking some
advice, some clarification, and the other piece of advice was just withdrawn.
It was withdrawn because the individual opted to go through an internal
process. They felt that they could
deal with it informally, through their employer.
This piece of legislation that we have does not grant
any protection for any employee of the civil service to be able to go internally
to try to settle a dispute informally.
That may be the advice that would be given by the Office of the Citizens'
Representative to make sure that the wheels of government are moving more
quickly, that disputes can be settled in a more much efficient and timely
manner, and the protection is given.
Why wouldn't we want to protect our public sector
employees, give them the ultimate protection?
The recommendation that was put forward of this hon. member in the report
is stated that the New Brunswick act should be amended to include a sanction;
sanctions against individuals who are guilty of taking a reprisal against a
former employee. So if we look at
that the New Brunswick act itself, it did not completely have all of the teeth
needed, but it does point out in 2011-2012 that other jurisdictions do have
whistleblower legislation. I find it
very interesting that it states Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba,
Newfoundland it leaves off Labrador but Newfoundland and Labrador and
Ontario.
We have seen where the Office of the Citizens'
Representative has investigated whistleblower legislation without having this
piece of legislation passed, and that New Brunswick is actually acknowledging
that Newfoundland has whistleblower legislation and that the Office of the
Citizens' Representative has had authority based on this annual report that is
stated here. It may be an error
based on the Ombudsman there, but there may need to be some point of
clarification where the minister who introduced the bill could actually clarify
what is meant by this piece of copycat legislation and also the fact that the
Office of the Citizens' Representative has investigated whistleblower
legislation in 2009 and that Newfoundland and Labrador is stated there.
Were they acting outside of their authority to do so without this
standalone piece of legislation?
We need to look at that and also looking at the number
of contacts that were there. The
piece of legislation that is put forward in New Brunswick does not have a lot of
contacts. If anything is an
indication, we will likely not see many contacts as well.
I have a lot more actually to say on this.
I see my time is expired. I
will have the opportunity again in Committee to speak.
MR.
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
KENT:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good evening.
I appreciate the points raised by the member opposite and I will do my
best during this Committee stage to answer as many questions as I can specific
to the legislation.
The suggestion is that we have simply copied and pasted
this legislation from other jurisdictions.
It is not uncommon for any province to review legislation in other
jurisdictions and look at how their legislation works in practice, then to adopt
or modify provisions, where appropriate.
In fact, Part VI of the House of Assembly Accountability, Integrity and
Administration Act was informed by Manitoba's legislation.
That was one of the only acts that was in place at the time.
The Public Interest Disclosure and Whistleblower Protection Act, however,
has the benefit of being informed by the legislation based on the experience in
six other provinces. We are also
aware that the Yukon is currently in the process of developing whistleblower
legislation.
Also, Mr. Chair, harmonization is a key principle of
regulatory reform in this country.
It is a best practice when it makes sense to do so.
A prime example of harmonization efforts is that all Canadian provinces
and territories, and the federal government, appoint delegates to the Uniform
Law Conference of Canada, or ULCC.
This is an organization whose sole mandate is to facilitate and promote the
harmonization of legislation throughout the country.
Many ULCC uniform acts have been adopted
into legislation by this jurisdiction, including apology, vital statistics,
public inquiries, limited liability partnerships, and securities legislation.
So these pieces of legislation mirror legislation in other jurisdictions
in the country.
While Bill 1, the piece of legislation we are debating
here this evening, is consistent with legislation in Manitoba, Saskatchewan,
Alberta, Ontario, Nova Scotia, and indeed New Brunswick, there are differences.
These differences are significant.
They are based on the experiences that other jurisdictions have had and
suggestions that have been made to us by some of these other jurisdictions as we
have developed this bill. I do not
know if I will get through all of them now, but I will certainly talk about some
of the specific differences that exist.
One that was highlighted during debate is the single
versus the dual-disclosure route.
This legislation contemplates a single-disclosure route, whereby disclosures of
wrongdoing will be received and investigated by the Office of the Citizens'
Representative, and that office will bring those matters to the attention of
government. This single route will
be unique across the country. It is
considered to be the most effective process that will give our public service
employees the comfort and assurance so that they may make a disclosure in
confidence to one independent office which is equipped with the skills and the
expertise and the resources necessary to conduct investigations in a fair and
impartial manner.
The process of advice giving, disclosure,
investigation, and recommendations will be consistent, because the Office of the
Citizens' Representative will be the only office involved.
All employees of the public service will therefore receive high-quality,
consistent, well-informed, and knowledgeable advice and support.
We have looked closely at what has been happening in New Brunswick, but
also other jurisdictions as well right across the country, and we have been
advised that internal processes have been problematic in other jurisdictions due
to the need to consistently and continuously train officials in all departments
and public bodies, and to ensure that all employees are aware of who the
investigator is and what the process is and so on.
Updating the policies and procedures and communication
to all officials and staff is very resource intensive from an administrative
perspective. This can result in
matters falling through the cracks for instance or investigations of serious and
significant wrongdoing not being dealt with appropriately.
That is a major concern for us.
We believe the Office of the Citizens' Representative is well equipped to
handle these matters in a consistent way, in a fair way, and in an appropriate
way.
The Citizens' Representative has legislative powers
that will also contribute to thorough unbiased investigations including the
powers to hold hearings and make inquiries deemed appropriate for a matter, and
the authority to require a person to provide and produce evidence.
These authorities are pretty critical to ensuring a proper investigation
of serious and significant wrongdoing.
We do want to ensure that these matters are properly investigated.
If matters were to simply be investigated internally, departmental
officials would not have these powers, meaning that investigations could be
severely negatively impacted.
The Citizens' Representative will also be aware of all
disclosures of serious and significant wrongdoing reported and investigated.
Whereas if all public bodies and departments were involved, there would
be no collective sense of the issues and no ability to prioritize and expedite
matters so that investigations receive priority and can be conducted in an
expedient manner.
There were a few other issues we have learned about
through the Manitoba Auditor General's review of the province's Framework for an
Ethical Environment. There was a
need for more communication to employees about the act, and more training for
management in conducting investigations.
Those are definitely useful learnings that we can apply here in our
jurisdiction in Newfoundland and Labrador.
There was also concern about the tracking and reporting of disclosures.
Through the Office of the Citizens' Representative, we
will implement comprehensive awareness and education opportunities for
employees. Given that the Citizens'
Representative will report on all inquiries and investigations through the House
of Assembly, there is no concern about tracking and reporting of all the
activities under this act, as may be experienced if all departments and public
bodies involved in providing advice, receiving disclosures, and conducting
investigations if everybody was involved, then the reporting and the tracking
would certainly be more problematic, there is no doubt about that.
The Citizens' Representative here in Newfoundland and
Labrador has been consulted and has advised that he believes this legislation
represents the best model in the country.
He is satisfied that he can begin implementation of this legislation
within current resources and that he will monitor the impacts over time.
He will request additional resources through the House of Assembly
Management Commission if deemed necessary.
I know the Member for Bay of Islands raised that point
earlier today during second reading.
I would suspect the Management Commission would respond very favourably to a
request from the Citizens' Representative if he deemed that he needed more
resources because of this legislation.
We do not believe that will be the case, but the door is certainly open
to that. I have confidence the
Management Commission would do the right thing in that circumstance given how
important that is.
Mr. Chair, I could talk about some of the other
differences in the legislation, and I am happy to do that, but I would rather
hear what other questions and concerns members have specific to the legislation.
We will work our way through them and I am sure I will have many more
opportunities to speak this evening.
Thank you.
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Member for St. Barbe.
MR.
J. BENNETT:
Mr.
Chair, I would like to speak by way of background a little bit on whistleblower
legislation because it is almost as if the government discovered a wheel and
they thought they invented it. The
wheel has been around for a while; whistleblower legislation has been around for
a while. In fact, the first
whistleblower protection law in the United States was on July 30, 1778; 1778 was
the first whistleblower protection law in the United States.
Government promised this when they were trying to get
elected in 2007. They got elected on
that promise and seven years later they are trudging along.
I guess they are getting ready to produce another Blue Book, so they
would like to go back at whistleblower protection legislation and act as if it
is something new. You see, it is not
new. It is very, very old.
In the bad old days before Ralph Nader, whistleblowers
used to be referred to as informers and snitchers, and probably even rats for
that matter. Ralph Nader coined the
phrase in the early 1970s, whistleblower.
The whistleblower term comes from, as if it is a referee blowing the
whistle to indicate illegal or foul play.
The different types of whistleblowers and this is
really relevant because this piece of legislation is very, very limited.
It is also very limiting, as limited in the types of occasions when it
can be used and who can use it. This
is designed to deal with internal whistleblowers, people who would report
misconduct of a fellow employee or a superior within their company.
One of the most interesting questions historically with respect to
internal whistleblowers is why and under what circumstances people either act on
the spot to stop illegal or otherwise unacceptable behaviour, or to report it.
Mr. Chair, this is something that government should
want people to do. Government should
want people to report inappropriate, illegal, unethical, fraudulent conduct.
We should want people to report it because it is in the public interest
that these types of activities be rooted out.
In order to do so, we have available to us whistleblower legislation, and
this whistleblower bill is extremely weak.
We could have considered and have not considered
external whistleblowers who would report misconduct to outside persons or
entities. The Citizens'
Representative clearly is an arm of government and not an outside person or
entity. I am not saying that he is
not the appropriate person or an appropriate person, but government has
completely bypassed the internal option of providing protection for someone who
would file a complaint internally within the organization.
Some of the common reactions to people who are seen as
whistleblowers is sometimes they are seen as selfless martyrs acting in the
public interest and for organizational accountability, although other times they
are viewed as traitors, defectors, someone who told on a friend.
One of the more prominent whistleblowers I know we have looked at the
most recent ones in the last few years that disclosed a whole lot of
information, and that was the WikiLeaks, this type of a whistleblower.
Well, years ago, Ryszard Kukliński believed that he would be able to
prevent a war in Europe between the Warsaw Pact and NATO countries by handing in
40,265 pages of secret military documents of East Germany and the People's
Republic of Poland to the CIA in West Germany.
The whistleblower legislation that we are looking at is
very limiting; it is very focused.
Mr. Chair, whistleblowers are persecuted, regardless of what law we think we can
pass to protect them from people exacting retaliation on them or retribution.
There is no doubt that anybody who files a complaint in the workplace can
expect to suffer some form of retaliation; however, the legislation that we are
proposing and I have no doubt that all parties ultimately will support the
legislation, hopefully legislation that has been amended adequately to be much
more effective than it is, but that may well be a few days away yet.
The different nations have a whole range of
whistleblower legislation.
Government would be interested to know that the United Kingdom has a government
which is the Department of Business, Innovation & Skills, which initiated a
whistleblowing commission in October 2013 to explore whether there are any
aspects of the law governing whistleblowers that may not be protecting
whistleblowers or encouraging them to come forward about wrongdoing.
Government seems to be acting as if this is a wonderful
thing they are doing for whistleblowers.
In fact, it is not a wonderful thing for whistleblowers; it is a
wonderful thing for the taxpayers, for the people who are the straight shooters
in organizations, the people who do a good job, and the people who will report
misconduct but they want to be protected if they do so.
Mr. Chair, the Netherlands have measures in place to mitigate the risks of whistleblowers. They have the Advice Centre for Whistleblowers; they offer advice to whistleblowers. The Parliament of the Netherlands recently passed a proposal to establish so-called House for Whistleblowers to protect them from the severe consequences that they might endure.
In the United States, even though whistleblower
protection was first used in the 1770s, the actual first law was introduced and
adopted by the government of the United States in 1863.
In 1863, four years before Canada was formed, the United States enacted
the United States False Claims Act and then revised it in 1986.
This tried to combat fraud by suppliers of the United States government
during the civil war. The act
encourages whistleblowers by promising them a percentage of the money recovered
or the damages won by government, and protects them from wrongful dismissal.
If we roll forward there are different types of
protection provided in different types of industries.
On Wall Street, securities whistleblowers are provided incentives and
protection by the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act of
2010. The SEC Office of the
Whistleblower was formed as a part of the Dodd-Frank Act.
They help to handle whistleblower tips and complaints, and provide
guidance to the enforcement division.
They will help the commission determine the size of awards for each
whistleblower. Further, they assist
whistleblowers by promoting the program and providing guidance and answering
questions about the program. Mr.
Chair, the United States also takes an interest in whistleblowers in respect of
the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission, the US military, US law
enforcement, and tax fraud.
Australia is also fully engaged in whistleblower
protection. There are laws in a
number of states. The former New
South Wales Police Commissioner Tony Lauer summed up official government or
police attitudes as Nobody in Australia much likes whistleblowers,
particularly in an organisation like the police or the government.'
Mr. Lauer's comments are clearly at odds with public support for
WikiLeaks.
We need not think by passing this legislation that it
would be that much easier for people to come forward; however, what the
legislation seeks to do is to ensure that if people do file a complaint, if
people do come forward, if they do the right thing, that the Province of
Newfoundland and Labrador would provide protection so that person will not lose
their job, will not be basically frozen at the workplace.
The legislation that is proposed is very mild; it is
weak. Even though
The Telegram has recently called it copycat legislation, it sort of
seems like copycat legislation, but when you read line by line between the New
Brunswick act and the proposed Newfoundland and Labrador bill, it is easy to see
that what has been copied has been copied but it has been watered down.
It is a weak piece of feel-good legislation that intends to do the right
thing. Hopefully, over the next
while, the Opposition can help the government focus in the right direction and
strengthen this piece of much needed and I am sure would be very popular
legislation.
I have no further comments at this point, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much.
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Minister of Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs.
MR.
KENT:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will just respond to the member's comments.
It was a fascinating lesson on whistleblower principles, I guess.
I am not quite sure where he was coming from, but he did make some
comments about our legislation not being particularly strong.
I actually am confident based on paying attention to
what is happening in other jurisdictions, based on incorporating the best of the
legislation from across the country and then fine tuning it to ensure that it
fits within the Newfoundland and Labrador context within our public service, I
think we can come up with a piece of legislation that is, in fact, the strongest
of anywhere in the country.
Employees are going to be able to disclose a series of
significant wrongdoing without fear of reprisal.
That is the fundamental essence of whistleblower legislation.
We have an independent office in the Office of the Citizens'
Representative that will have the power and authority to receive and investigate
allegations of wrongdoing, and publicly report findings.
As I said in my previous remarks the Office of the Citizens'
Representative has the powers and the authority to really do that role in an
effective way.
The anti-reprisal protections will be in place for
employees who disclose wrongdoing.
The Labour Relations Board has significant power.
It will be given the power to consider complaints and award remedies,
including reinstatement, for reprisals against whistleblowers.
So we are talking about a piece of legislation that gives considerable
power to the Office of the Citizens' Representative, considerable power to the
Labour Relations Board, and also provides considerable protection to our
employees.
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Member for St. John's North.
MR.
KIRBY:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It is a pleasure for me to stand again in the House and
have a few more words to say to the Public Interest Disclosure and Whistleblower
Protection Act, Bill 1.
Of course, I think one of the things we will all agree
on here in the House, and it has been alluded to by a number of individuals, a
number of individuals have stated outright, we have heard a number of comments
on it, is the fact that people who stand by the courage of their convictions and
speak up, and stand by their word.
Those people who see wrongdoing that affects the public interest in some way,
that expose misconduct, expose incompetence or corruption, that those people who
stand by the courage of their convictions are not only recognized but also
protected through our law.
There have been a number of high-profile cases that
members of the House of Assembly are no doubt aware of or heard about through
the media. I know my colleague, the
Member for St. Barbe, has talked about some of the things that have happened
across the country and in other jurisdictions, and rules and regulations they
have in place.
One of the cases I am sure many members will recognize
is the July, 2013 that was just last year the case of Sylvie Therrien who
was suspended without pay for revealing that she, like a number of other
Employment Insurance investigators, was subject to a quota.
You will remember this was in the news just last year.
She was subject to a quota each year to find a savings of nearly half a
million dollars, $500,000 each year she was an Employment Insurance
investigator by denying EI claims made by people, by EI applicants.
Basically, having to find a quota each year of $500,000, denying many
people who were potentially eligible for Employment Insurance benefits.
Basically, she pointed out at that time that many of
the people who were denied Employment Insurance benefits were actually entitled
to them. They were denied Employment
Insurance benefits that they had paid for.
They had paid into the system.
They were playing by the rules.
They were entitled to Employment Insurance benefits, and they were denied
them because these individuals, by virtue of their work, were required to come
up with $500,000 worth of saved claims on an annual basis.
This particular woman, Sylvie Therrien, felt she could
not send people out in the street in order to do the Harper government's
bidding. Unfortunately, she did not
realize how perilously close to the street she actually was herself because the
government fired her. She was fired
by the federal government, which means that she, in fact, was not entitled to
Employment Insurance benefits because she was fired.
She was stripped of all of her benefits from her work, her security
clearance, and was basically unemployable in the public service.
In the end, she was unable to afford her rent.
She was couch surfing and living with a friend.
That is all as a result that she pointed out this wrongdoing by the
Harper government.
There have been all sorts of previous cases.
We have heard about cases where the undue influence of one interest or
another, whether it is the pharmaceutical industry or some other company that is
pressuring for approvals and aggressively lobbing people who have spoken out
courageously, and under legislation such as this would be protected.
I think one of the other things I do not see here in
the legislation is scenarios that we have talked about whereby people are sort
of shuffled off to some part of the operation where they are rarely heard from
or rarely acknowledged, people who basically feel like they have been put into
dead-end jobs or positions after coming forward with information as a
whistleblower. That, too, is a
punishment. There are many ways to
silence people. We have seen that
with many cases, the high profile cases that we have seen come forward.
One of the cases that is synonymous with whistleblower
legislation and protection is the case of the RCMP pension fund scandal.
Everybody will remember the RCMP pension fund scandal.
It finally came to light through the efforts of five people who were
employed by that organization. They
all struggled on; they all courageously came forward in the face of attempted or
apparent attempts by top people there to block investigators.
Denise Revine was a human resource director who first
uncovered these suspicious transactions.
She compiled a massive amount of information, a massive file of evidence.
Her boss, her immediate supervisor, Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay
tried to ensure that all of this was properly investigated.
He was removed from his position, given what he believed to be a punitive
secondment, a transfer to another job that he felt was being shuffled off to one
of the four corners of the universe to be shut up effectively.
Then retired Staff Sergeant Ron Lewis was also fairly
persistent in efforts to make somebody in authority pay attention, first within
the RCMP, then through Treasury Board federally and the Office of the Auditor
General, finally the Members of Parliament, and then as a last resort out to the
media. Staff Sergeant Steve Walker
took part in the Ottawa Police Service's criminal investigation of the RCMP five
pension fund scandal into the entire affair.
Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell was removed from the investigation as the
inquiries got closer and closer and closer to the most senior RCMP management.
In what we would probably regard in a situation where
there was limited or no whistleblower protection at all, in an unprecedented
turn of events, all five of these individuals were given the RCMP's most coveted
national award, the Commissioner's Commendation for Outstanding Service.
The House of Commons Committee unanimously passed a motion that the five
be publicly commended and that the commendation be tabled in Parliament.
Prior to this, no Canadian whistleblower had ever, ever received any form
of formal thanks. No thank you
whatsoever or recognition from authorities for having the courage of their
convictions to stand out, to point out an obvious egregious case of corruption.
Well, more or less outright theft that was proven.
All of those people were various tools in the
workplace were used against them to try and discredit them, to try and
discourage them, but they did not give up.
I think this is yet another reasonably good case to point out why we need
whistleblower protection, such as the ones that are being proposed through Bill
1.
As my colleague, the Member for Carbonear Harbour
Grace, pointed out earlier today, we have some concerns about this legislation.
We know this has been a reasonably good try and we know the twenty-one
sections that were copy and pasted from the legislation in New Brunswick have
also been in effect and useful for that Province for some time.
CHAIR:
Order, please!
MR.
KIRBY:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Minister of Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs.
MR.
KENT:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the member for his comments.
He gave some examples of whistleblower cases that have existed in other
jurisdictions, and they are good examples.
They actually speak to the need for this legislation.
They speak to the importance of the legislation.
So I hope we can talk more specifically about our legislation as we work
through the committee process this evening.
He referenced the possibility of employees who are
aware of wrongdoing being shuffled off to use his words to another job in
order to silence people; being shifted to another place, perhaps a dead-end
position in a department or an agency.
That would be serious reprisal.
There is a need to deal with just that.
Under this legislation, if an employee feels there has
been any form of reprisal of any type against him or her as a result of an
action under this act, then that employee can make a complaint to the Labour
Relations Board. The Labour
Relations Board has some real power, not only to decide whether a reprisal
action has occurred but the board can actually order a remedy or a solution.
For instance, if somebody had been demoted or shifted
to another position, then the board can make a decision to award compensation or
even reinstate somebody in their previous position.
The board has some real clear authority in this legislation that would
address the specific concerns the member opposite is talking about.
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Member for The Straits White Bay North.
MR.
MITCHELMORE:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Where I left off previously on this bill, I was talking
about the Public Interest Disclosure Act.
I have had the opportunity to listen to my colleague for St. Barbe talk
about whistleblower legislation in detail and the historical significance from
the American perspective, and also my colleague from St. John's North talk about
a significant example of why whistleblower legislation would be needed and how
we need to have strong whistleblower legislation to make sure that the
whistleblower is protected.
What I want to ask the minister, and it is a very
specific question that is not addressed in the legislation, or not one that I
saw. It is listed in the Annual
Report of the Public Interest Disclosure Act in New Brunswick, where it says,
If the Ombudsman receives a complaint from an individual who is not an employee
of the Public Service, under section 23 he may forward the claim to the chief
executive of that portion of the public service in respect of which the claim is
made.
What mechanism do we have to make sure that when an
individual makes a claim that it goes through the appropriate mechanism to make
sure it gets dealt with? Is that the
role of the Citizens' Representative to do a referral out?
Will the Citizens' Representative then do a follow up to make sure there
was adequate action taken, or is the protocols dealt with on an internal basis?
That is one of the questions that specifically shows
how the New Brunswick legislation is a bit different.
That is something the Member for St. Barbe talked about, is that the
legislation does copy a number of sections but there are differences.
We do not adequately see that difference in how we deal with the
individuals who are not part of the public service and how their complaints get
dealt with, and we certainly know they do not have the reprisal piece.
If we go to page 7 of the bill it talks about, section
11, where disclosure restrictions continue to apply.
Notwithstanding section 10, nothing in this Act authorizes the
disclosure of
and then it lists (a) and talks about
the deliberations of the
Executive Council or a committee of the Executive Council; or (b) information or
documents that are protected by solicitor-client privilege.
Solicitor-client privilege, although at the briefing we
received it was talked about that this is not uncommon, but if we look at real
life examples and what is actually happening when we look at the overarching
federal legislation, the Canadian legislation when it comes to the challenges
that sometimes our government lawyers face, the ethical conundrums they face and
whether it would be government lawyers, about releasing information, know they
may have to release a document or they know there may be something unethical or
illegal happening, but if you are going to use a clause like: protected by
solicitor-client privilege, then it can lead to, I guess in many cases, where
the public is not being protected, or adequately protected.
To give you an example here of an individual who was
legal counsel for the Legislative Service branch in the federal Department of
Justice, so a lawyer in the federal Department of Justice, served the Office of
the Attorney General, the AG, with a statement of claim.
They alleged that their own ministry, their own department had acted
unlawfully by failing to properly review the constitutionality of the draft
legislation. They did not do their
due diligence. That is the claim.
That is the claim by a lawyer who went to the Office of the Auditor
General to file a complaint.
Do you know what happened to that person?
Even though the whistleblower legislation federally existed, the
immediate superior, that person's boss advised that employee by telephone they
were terminated, suspended without pay for making that action, for taking action
to try and protect the public good.
Also with follow up, that person was not allowed to go
to their office, was not allowed to access any files.
This was a real piece of reprisal.
This was action taken against an individual.
It raises many questions about the ethical beauty of a government lawyer
and the tension about whistleblowing legislation that exists, the rules for
professional conduct and how a lawyer who knows there is wrongdoing happening in
the public service is unable to use the whistleblower legislation to protect the
public good.
That person felt so compelled that they are taking
legal action as an unlawful practice.
This is going forward. It is
going through the vetting process, the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of
Canada on grounds that the allocations were unlikely to lead to an
investigation. We saw a request was
made under the Public Servants Disclosure Act seeking a legal opinion, $1,500 to
assess the adequacy. Eventually, the
claim (inaudible) and said to move things forward; basically, it was almost
likely or almost certainly inconsistent with the Charter even if it was a
likelihood of 95 per cent or more but the argument was made that it was
consistent even if it was less than a 5 per cent chance of success then
there is no duty to inform the House of Commons.
So this was what was pressed.
It went back to say that solicitor-client privilege should protect this
information even though it could do damage to the public good and that due
diligence was not practiced under the constitutionality of legislation.
The Attorney General in the Department of Justice first argued that it
violated the solicitor-client privilege because it revealed information, policy
documents. We all know the Cabinet
deliberations, what leads to a policy document, and that information based on
Bill 29 and going on down through that.
So this is how the federal government tried to deal with making sure that
a whistleblower was really being reprimanded.
They were trying to do good and got suspended there
without pay, were not able to get their information, and then the Attorney
General said you violated the solicitor-client privilege, that it is a federal
offence, and it called for all the action to be dismissed, but that was dropped.
That motion was dropped for dismissal of claims for breach because it
said, in order to promote an expeditious resolution, the defendant wishes to
proceed directly to the merits and no longer seeks to strike or stay this
action.'
So, government, the Attorney General, did not move
forward on this matter on that basis.
They talked about privilege, they talked about the privilege of doctrine
and where policies of how government lawyers do their work, they were not taking
legal advice on a particular matter.
It really showed, this actual case, the Schmidt case, it talked about the
Attorney General's whole department was being unwilling to release information.
This is something that I raised in the first hour of
debate. I talked about: Will the
Office of the Citizens' Representative be able to use information, protect
information? We see there have
already been cases where there have been criminal investigations filed with the
RNC, the RNC goes to the Citizens' Representative and they are not able to get
the information because the Citizens' Representative is using their act to
protect the information and hide it, basically leave it unavailable for the
public good.
So, how are we ensuring that the whistleblower, the
person who should be protected, does not end up being unemployed and getting all
kinds of information placed against them and have to go through the filing court
challenges, dragging that in how many public servants would have to financial
resources to take on such an onerous task, as happened in this federal case that
is going forward right now?
The lawyer has stated that this was not inconsistent
with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and that there was only the slightest
chance that if it was moved forward for a constitutional challenge, that this
was not implemented in good faith and that the Department of Justice requires
that of the Department of Justice in being able to engage in good faith.
This whistleblower basically did everything right and that the activity
brought the issue successfully to light.
It brought this issue to light and it was done in fairness on how it
impacts Parliament.
I am not able to get through the full extent, but maybe
the minister could respond so far. I
will get another opportunity to finish this example and go forward in Committee.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
CHAIR:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment and
Conservation, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit
again.
CHAIR:
The
motion is that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
CHAIR:
All
those against, nay'.
Carried.
On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and
ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.
MR.
SPEAKER (Wiseman):
Order, please!
The hon. the Member for the District of Lewisporte.
MR.
VERGE:
Mr.
Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred
and have directed me to report progress and ask leave to sit again.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
Deputy Chair of Committees has reported the Committee has been directed to
report progress and ask leave to sit again.
When shall the Committee sit again?
MR.
KING:
Tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
On
tomorrow.
On motion, report received and adopted.
Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
At this time I call from the Order Paper, Motion 1,
that the House approves in general the budgetary policy of the government, the
Budget Speech.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for the District of St. John's South.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I guess nobody over there wanted to speak, so I will
speak.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
I
have acknowledged the Member for St. John's South, but I will take direction
from the I do not have an accurate list in front of me of those who have
spoken. We are speaking now to the
amendment.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
The
sub-amendment.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
amendment. The sub-amendment has
been voted on and passed. We are now
speaking to the amendment. I do not
have a current list.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
He
has not spoken.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
member has not spoken, fair enough then.
I will continue to acknowledge him and now he can speak.
He has his twenty minutes.
MR. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I actually have nineteen minutes and twenty-five
seconds. I do not know if you want to
reset the time.
MR.
SPEAKER:
I
just wasted seventy-five seconds. I
am sorry about that.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Mr.
Speaker, I will talk a little bit about the Access. Inclusion. Equality., which
is the Provincial Strategy for the Inclusion of Persons with Disabilities in
Newfoundland and Labrador. The
reason I want to speak about this is because I have had several individuals,
some from my district, some from other districts who have contacted me wanting
to get into Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, wanting to get accessible
housing.
It is something that is a concern.
I know that through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, they have a long
waiting list for people who have accessibility issues.
There are not enough accessible Newfoundland and Labrador Housing units.
Mr. Speaker, we had a couple of situations.
I know I asked questions here in the House of Assembly on one particular
individual. She was living in my
district and she had been on the list for over three years, almost four years,
waiting for a Newfoundland and Labrador Housing unit.
She complained of injuries to her hands because the
doorways were not wide enough. She
complained of injuries to her legs and her feet because the bathtub was not
accessible. She complained that when
there were power outages, because she was on the third floor of an apartment
building, she could not get down the stairs.
In fact, during the blackout that we experienced earlier this year, Mr.
Speaker, she had to call the fire department to get them to help her down the
stairs. She complained that she
burned her arm several times because the stove was not considered to be an
accessible stove.
So, we look at these situations, Mr. Speaker, and we
look at the number of people who are waiting for accessible housing units, we
look at the fact that there are not enough accessible housing units in the
Newfoundland and Labrador inventory.
I have to wonder why, in this year's Budget, there was not additional funding
put in place to allow those who need accessible housing units greater access to
accessible housing units.
As part of this strategy, Mr. Speaker, we looked at
what people said during the consultations on inclusion, the report that
government calls Access. Inclusion. Equality.
People talked about accessibility.
Houses and apartments built with Universal Design principles, accessible
and visible for those who want to visit, such as neighbours and so on.
Mr. Speaker, this strategy, through the consultation process, a strategy
that has as its ultimate goal the full inclusion of persons with disabilities in
all aspects of society must be solution-focused.
We will continue on, Mr. Speaker, because there are
some important parts to this document that this government commissioned, yet I
do not see the commitment being put into making housing units accessible.
The proof to that, Mr. Speaker, was in this year's Budget.
We look at: The Provincial Government has made a commitment to inclusion
of individuals with disabilities in all aspects of society.
This commitment was strengthened in 2011 with the promise to implement a
strategy for the inclusion of persons with disabilities.
It says here from the Throne Speech, My government believes a person's
path to opportunity should not be barred because of a disability
.
I just want to remind people that with this
consultation and with this document and the great promise of inclusion for those
with disabilities, that we are not seeing the evidence of that.
The 2012 Speech from the Throne further affirmed the
Provincial Government's commitment to the inclusion of persons with disabilities
by moving forward with a provincial strategy.
They say, It is important to make sure that as barriers are removed new
ones are not created. This requires
the collaboration and dedication of all departments and agencies across the
Provincial Government
.
Mr. Speaker, we look at this, the Minister Responsible
for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing was one of the members that sat on this
committee. That is why members of
the community who have accessibility issues are wondering why there was not a
greater commitment in this last year's Budget, a greater commitment in this
year's Budget, to address the issues that those individuals face.
Benefits of Inclusion and Accessibility: In addition to
increased accessibility, they want to enhance the quality of life for everyone.
Mr. Speaker, we look at a Commitment to Action as part of this document
that government produced and they talk about changing attitudes and removing
myths about accessibility will result in positive outcomes for everyone.
Mr. Speaker, the strategy of this document,
Accessibility for All in the Built Environment, and we are talking about
housing. Universal Design was
consistently brought forward during the provincial consultations as a solution
for making buildings and places where people live, work and play more
accessible. We talk about, as part
of this strategy, The concept of visitable housing promotes a design that
provides a barrier-free entrance, wider doorways and an accessible washroom
.
Goal 3.2 of that strategy, Mr. Speaker, clearly
outlines, To increase options for accessible housing within private and public
sectors public, meaning Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and promote the
concept of visitability throughout the province.
Mr. Speaker, we have to wonder why government has not
put funding in place to ensure that they follow through on this commitment, a
commitment that was put forward in 2011, acknowledged in the Throne Speech of
2012; yet we do not see, as part of that commitment, the funding to back it up.
It is one thing to say that we are committed to doing something; it is
another thing to put that into action, to put the funding there to ensure that
the funding is in place to ensure that accessibility needs are met in this
Province.
There is an accessibility issue, Mr. Speaker.
Those individuals who need accessibility would not find the minister's
comments very amusing here tonight.
I will point them out if he continues because the individuals who have
accessibility issues do not find this a very amusing topic.
I am sure that the minster will continue to find it amusing, but those
individuals do not find it amusing.
We have had several other instances, Mr. Speaker, where
individuals with accessibility issues have had injuries.
One individual, which was in the media as well just last month I will
name it, because it was on the front page of the paper.
That particular individual, her husband had to shovel over 200 feet of
sidewalk from their unit in order to allow her wheelchair access to the unit,
which is shameful. He had to shovel
over 200 feet of sidewalk. Once
inside the unit, Mr. Speaker, the doorways are not accessible, the washroom is
not fully accessible, and the bedrooms are upstairs.
So, how can you say that a unit with stairs is fully accessible?
In this particular case here, Housing refused to put a
ramp to that unit. The reason why
they would not put a ramp to the unit was because it is not an accessible unit.
They lowered the counters in the unit, after years of protest by the
individuals who live there, and they put in an accessible stove, but would not
put a ramp to that unit. The
individuals had to go out in fact, there was a community group that had
offered to put a ramp in place, a fixed structure.
Housing said no, we are not allowing a fixed structure
ramp on that unit because it is not an accessible unit.
Yet they are renting it to a person who needs an accessible unit and they
have been waiting for years. They
went out and purchased a portable ramp and put it to the door in order to allow
her wheelchair or her motorized vehicle in and out of that unit, Mr. Speaker.
There is a need for accessible housing.
It is not a funny issue. It
is not something that members of this House should make jokes about.
It is a very real issue. It
is a real issue to that individual who faces that issue every day, who every
time it snows her husband needs to shovel over 200 feet of sidewalk.
To them, it is a real issue, and I do not think they are laughing.
It is a real issue to the lady who lives downtown who
was also in the media, living on the third floor of an apartment building not
an accessible unit. Those
individuals, and there are several others, are looking for accessible housing.
This document a nice, colourful document, very
impressive when it was put out, everybody, I am sure, in this House had great
hope that this document would see with it the commitment, not just the words but
the commitment to ensure that this document brought to reality what the people
were promised, but it did not.
In this year's Budget, I was disappointed to see that
there wasn't additional funding to make sure that accessible housing units were
made available for those who need it.
Mr. Speaker, an issue this year, we talked about the
fact that I know that government have promised now to look into it in this
year's Budget, but I did not see the funding attached to that.
There was a private member's resolution last year.
There was time to put the funding in place.
There was time to ensure that the funding was in place and the commitment
was made, but in this year's Budget we saw a promise to look into it further and
to address the issue.
That is the issue of those who are on Income Support.
The fact that whether you live in Piccadilly, as pointed out by the
former Auditor General who was hired by government to review the issue and to
review issues within the department pointed out that whether you are living in
Piccadilly or you are living St. John's, it does not matter, you get the same
rental allowance. The rental rates
in Piccadilly are considerably less than the rental rates in St. John's; yet,
the maximum rate for a family, whether they are renting a three or a four
bedroom home the maximum rental supplement for a family is $520.
Mr. Speaker, nowhere in the City of St. John's can you
rent a three or four bedroom house for $520, but that is what the rental
supplement is for those on Income Support.
What is happening? They are
taking money from their food allowance, or they are working on the side in order
to survive. They are coming up with
it in some way, but they are definitely not getting it from the rental allowance
because $520 does not pay $1,100 in rent.
Mr. Speaker, we saw an increase in Income Support this
year, and I commend government for that because it was a much needed increase.
It was not enough, but then again, I understand there are limitations and
government can only deliver part of it this year and maybe part of it next year.
It was 5 per cent. It was
very welcomed by those who are on Income Support, but the $520 plus the 5 per
cent increase on their monthly benefit still does not make up $1,100 or $1,200,
which is what they are paying in rent.
Mr. Speaker, we do need to fix and put in place what
was voted on in this House in a private member's resolution to ensure that
rental rates that are paid through Income Support are paid based on which area
of the Province you live in and what the average rental rates are in that area.
That is the reason this party brought it to the floor of the House of
Assembly in a private member's resolution, and it got unanimous support.
I was disappointed it was not in this year's Budget, Mr. Speaker,
especially considering it was voted on in a private member's resolution in
plenty of time to have seen it worked into this year's Budget and made a part of
this year's Budget.
We know the 5 per cent increase in Income Support rates
was very welcomed, but we still did not fix the rental problem.
There is a rental problem in many parts of this Province.
It is not just in St. John's.
In Clarenville, in Gander, the rental rates are much higher than Income Support
allows for. In Labrador West they
are much higher. In Corner Brook,
Goose Bay, all over the Province there are areas where the rental supplement
simply does not pay the rent, and they have to come up with it somewhere.
If we look at what is happening in those families, Mr.
Speaker, they are sending their children to school hungry.
They are doing that because they do not have enough to pay their rent and
put groceries in the fridge and keep the heat and lights on.
So they have to make choices.
Their children are going to school hungry, and that is a fact, because in this
Province we are double the national average for food bank usage.
In this Province we are double the national average for the numbers of
people who utilize food banks, and that is a shameful statistic.
That is a shameful statistic.
Mr. Speaker, we also see a greater number of soup
kitchens open in the Province. I
know for sure in the city there are more soup kitchens now, and there are more
people using those soup kitchens than ever before.
The reason for that is because people simply cannot afford to pay the
rent based on what they are receiving on Income Support.
Mr. Speaker, when you look at and I spent some time,
and I still help out in ways at the soup kitchen.
Every Friday morning for years I would go down and help at the soup
kitchen down in my district. When I
first started down there you would get forty or fifty.
On a busy day you would get sixty people a day in the soup kitchen on
Friday morning for brunch. We saw
the numbers increase and increase.
Since we became a have Province the numbers have increased and increased and
there are about 200 people every Friday morning now visiting that soup kitchen.
That was over the course of about six years.
It grew from a busy day being sixty, up to about 200 on average every
Friday morning. That is not a
statistic we should be proud of here, and there is a reason.
Now the economy is doing great in many areas of the Province, St. John's
being one of them. The economy is
doing great, but there is a growing division between the people who can afford
to live and the people who cannot afford to live.
Some of the people who cannot afford to live, Mr.
Speaker, are those on Income Support.
That 5 per cent increase is not going to lower by much it might lower
it a little bit, but it certainly will not lower by much, if at all, the number
of people who are going to the soup kitchens or the number of people going to
food banks.
It is going to continue to be healthy here in St.
John's, Mr. Speaker. As the economy
continues to be healthy, you are going to continue to see that growing division
between the people who can afford to live and the people who cannot afford to
live. That is something that needs
to be addressed.
I know government put in place the Poverty Reduction
Strategy. In fact, I was one of the
ministers who sat on that Poverty Reduction Strategy Committee when it was first
formed. I will say it was not just
when it was first formed. For years
and years, Mr. Speaker, that strategy was doing very well.
It was the envy of poverty reduction strategies all across the country.
Other provinces were coming to this Province asking what we were doing,
but I think over the past couple of years, Mr. Speaker, that has become less and
less effective because there are more and more people going to food banks, there
are more and more people going to soup kitchens.
It is becoming less and less effective, Mr. Speaker.
There is a reason there are more people going to food banks.
The Poverty Reduction Strategy is not helping everybody.
We can hold that out because it was great news for a number of years but
it is no longer helping everybody.
The proof of that is in the number of people who are reaching out and begging
for help.
Mr. Speaker, I know I have just over a minute left to
speak. There are a number of other
issues I would like to speak on, and I will get other opportunities in the
Budget debate to speak on those issues, but before I move off the Poverty
Reduction Strategy and the availability of housing, or accessible housing, I
also want to talk about the fact that in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing's
inventory, especially in the St. John's area, we have a number of properties now
that if they were owned by private landlords, Mr. Speaker, I am sure this city
would go in and put work orders on them.
I know where they are. People
renting them contact us on a regular basis.
AN
HON. MEMBER:
New
Pennywell Road.
MR.
OSBORNE:
New
Pennywell Road being one of them.
There are areas in the downtown area, areas in St. John's Centre I know where
the housing units are in great need of repair.
Mr. Speaker, it is great we are providing Newfoundland
and Labrador Housing units but when people can lean against the window and have
the window fall out because it is in such need of repair, we need to do more.
That is part of the infrastructure deficit, Mr. Speaker.
When that party took government there was a great deal
of talk about the infrastructure deficit.
I spoke about it myself.
There is an infrastructure deficit.
We look at the number of bridges that need to be repaired, pointed out by the
Auditor General, Mr. Speaker, the number of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing
units
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
The member's time has expired.
MR.
OSBORNE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Signal Hill Quidi Vidi.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MS
MICHAEL:
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I am very pleased to be able to stand tonight and speak
to the amendment to the Budget. It
has been an interesting time since the Budget came down, and I find it very
interesting to see what the government chose to send out to the people in the
Province after the Budget was brought down.
It was an interesting piece of information giving information to people
that is half the picture, half the story.
It is very interesting that the card that government sent around to the
general population to promote their Budget, the front of it, or one side of it
had on it information on a card that we all got on the day the Budget came down.
Then, on the other side, there is a whole graphic that we did not get
when we got this card when the Budget came down a very interesting graphic.
The graphic talks about economic changes in the ten
years from 2003 to 2013; it seems to be put together in a way to try to dazzle
people, Mr. Speaker. For example,
one of the things that they have is a graphic of a construction truck and
talking about capital investment having gone up 232.1 per cent in those ten
years, and there is an asterisk and the asterisk shows government and private
spending.
It does not say how much of it is government spending.
It does not say what the private spending is.
It does not say what this capital investment was all about.
Not pointing out that, in actual fact, over those ten years the
government had revenue for the first time that it was able to use on our
infrastructure, which was really in disrepair because this Province had so
little money over the decades, over the years.
This picture, capital investment gone up by 232.1 per cent, is dazzling
the people with figures.
Then they talk about average employment reached
232,800, a record high. It does not
talk about unemployment. It does not
talk about where in rural and coastal Newfoundland we have quite a high
unemployment rate. It does not talk
about the communities where people do not have employment in their communities
and workers have to leave the Province and commute to the other side of the
country in order to find employment.
There is nothing about that dazzling people with numbers.
Then they talk about the increase in average weekly
earnings, 48.6 per cent. Once again,
the person who is on minimum wage earning $10 an hour knows that an increase in
average weekly earnings for them has not been 48.6 per cent.
They know that. Yet, again,
the numbers out there to dazzle people, to try to get them away from what the
reality is in their life.
Also, they talk about the per capita increase in
household disposable income up by 75.9 per cent.
Well, that is because we do have a group of people in the Province who
are earning an awful lot more than they used to earn, but we still have many
people in the Province who cannot even dream about their income having gone up,
their disposable income having gone up by that percent.
It is a dream for a large number in the Province, but dazzle the people
with numbers as if they do not know what the reality is.
Then, an increase in retail sales, 48.6 per cent; I am
sure here in St. John's the increase in retail sales is way beyond that, which
brings up the average because there are places in rural and coastal Newfoundland
and Labrador where such is not the case, many places.
This is what really gets me about this Budget; they
have a section in it called fair society in which they talk about the theme is
social justice. Social justice, Mr.
Speaker, means a society where the goal is to make sure that nobody is left
behind. Social justice means a
society where programs are in place, where resources are shared, where planning
is done so that everybody benefits.
The people in this Province, Mr. Speaker, who are not benefiting know that they
are not benefiting.
The Budget, for example, talks about making things
better for seniors; it talks about the increase in Income Support, which is a
pittance; and it talks about the increase in the Seniors' Benefit, again, a
pittance, Mr. Speaker. They talk
about the maximum payment seniors will receive in October 2014 will be the
highest ever at $1,036 up from $971 in 2013.
It is up a whopping $65 a whopping $65 and that is what they do not
say. They use the numbers in a way
that makes people think, or tries to make people think, everything is fine, but
people are living their lives.
The people on low income, whether they are people on
Income Support or working for minimum wage, they know what their life is, they
know what the cost of living is, and they know what it is when they cannot buy
food for their family and they have to go to food banks.
This government continues to deny the reality that is
there for people. They continue to
deny the reality that the gap between those who have and those who have not is
growing in this Province. Every
study that has been done in recent years in this country is showing that the gap
is growing, but because there are people at that top of that gap who are doing
well and there are people who are doing well everything is okay.
It does not matter that the gap is growing and the people at the other
end are not moving.
The very fact that this government would not consider
the recommendations of the minimum wage committee, Mr. Speaker, that they would
not vote for the minimum wage resolution that I brought into this House as a
private member, that we were the only party that voted to go ahead with the
recommendations that were made by that committee why bother to put the
committees in place if you are not going to follow the recommendations which
were absolutely logical recommendations?
It is not costing them a cent.
So, they are obviously not listening to the people who are working on
minimum wage. They are listening to
somebody else. It is not costing
this government, it is not costing us, and it is not costing the Province to put
the minimum wage up.
We have people who are working for minimum wage and who
are going to food banks. That is a
reality. Yet we are not supposed to
think about that reality. We are
supposed to ignore that reality. The
fact that we have seniors who cannot afford to live, seniors all over this
Province, both in the cities and in the rural areas; seniors who cannot put the
heat on and feed themselves at that same time; seniors who, because they are $1
above a ceiling that has been put in with regard to a drug card, have to pay for
their own drugs and, consequently, cannot afford to fully take care of
themselves; seniors like the women I talked about already in this House who
chews ice in order to take care of hunger pangs because they do not have enough
food.
Once again, these are not things that I am making up.
These are the things that have been told to me as I go around this
Province. These are the things that
are told to me by the volunteers in the communities who are trying to help other
people in their communities, the volunteers from the food banks.
The volunteers who are going to the hospitals and going into the places
where seniors are in beds. They are
medically discharged from the hospital; therefore there is no medical care for
them. They are lying in beds and
vegetating because there are no beds for them in long-term care and because we
do not have a home care program that is part of our medical system.
People could be kept at home.
They could even be kept at home at third stage of care if we had a good
home care system. It can happen.
You can be bedridden and be taken care of at home if you have a home care
system. I know because my mother did
it. My mother was bedridden, but
because she could pay for her home care she could stay at home.
It was proven that she could be bedridden and be at home and die at home.
Why can't that be happening for everybody in this Province?
The bits and pieces that this government does I am
delighted that all-day Kindergarten is in the Budget.
It is something we have always said should happen, but we see it as one
of the pieces that is part of early childhood education and a full plan; a full
plan that includes child care. A
full plan that includes universal, accessible child care.
This government keeps doing bits and pieces, and I am
happy when the bits and pieces are things I have been looking for but I want
them as part of a plan. Yes, I am
delighted that finally the student loan issue has been resolved and we are going
to have grants come in for the provincial side.
That is wonderful. I am
really glad about that.
That is the one place where this government seems to be
listening. I guess it is because
they see the post-secondary students as voters who have some power.
That is the only thing I can figure out because it is the one place they
have listened, has been with regard to keeping the tuition frozen and now with
regard to bringing in the grant system which we are really happy for, which is
something we have always called for.
Mr. Speaker, they do not put plans in place.
This is the thing that is really frustrating, and people say it to me all
over the Province.
Where is the housing plan?
They absolutely seem to totally have blinders on with regard to the
housing need in this Province. They
do not believe that even seniors are couch surfing.
They do not believe it, but they are.
Young people are couch surfing.
This is what is going on in this Province.
It is going on all over, and it is not just in the city.
It is not just in the City of St. John's.
It is not just in the City of Corner Brook.
It is going on everywhere in the Province, but they continue to wear
blinders with regard to that fact, Mr. Speaker.
It really does drive me insane when I think about it.
I wonder where their heads are.
Surely they see the same things I see.
Surely they see the same things we see.
Surely they are hearing the same things from their constituents that we
are hearing. Surely they are, but if
they are they are managing to block out the reality.
We have to have a society where everybody is taken care
of. We have to have a society where
the planning includes everybody. We
have to make sure programs are in place that benefits everybody.
If there can be drug cards for seniors in other provinces, why can't we
have drug cards for all seniors here?
I do not understand it. If we
can have home care as part of the health care system in other provinces, why
can't we have it here? This is what
people are asking.
If they can have an early childhood education plan in
other provinces where we have programs taking care of children from the time
they are six months on, in terms of seeing it as early childhood development,
why can't we have it here? I am sick
and tired of hearing them say every time they do something: We are the best in
the country in doing this. We have
the best of this. We have the best
pupil teacher ratio. We have the
best employment rates. We have the
best of everything.
We do not, and that is the thing.
People know that we do not because people now travel all over this
country. People have either lived in
Manitoba, or lived in British Columbia, or lived in Ontario, or their children
live there and they know the difference.
They know what exists in other parts of the country.
So they cannot fool people with pamphlets like this because people know
the difference.
People are supposed to get really, really excited that
we have maybe $4.8 million more going into Income Support.
It is a pittance for the individual families.
It is slightly over $100 a year, while we are putting billions into a
project, into Muskrat Falls where they have not proven the economic reality of
that project to us. We have asked
over and over for the figures that show us that it is going to be economically
viable and they have not been able to show us that.
They have never done it.
They can put billions into that project without proving
to the Province it is going to benefit us.
They put billions into that project which already we know is over what
was estimated. It is over cost and
it is going to be much more over cost than they admit.
They are putting billions into that and people are supposed to get
excited because they have another $4 million in the Budget for Income Support.
It is not good enough, Mr. Speaker.
For them to be using the term social justice when it
comes to the way in which they run this Province, there is something wrong.
There is something wrong when we have people who are lying in beds
waiting to go somewhere else.
One of the volunteers I saw many, but there was one
in Central Newfoundland and she goes to one of the hospitals.
She said: Ms Michael, they are dying in the beds because number one,
there is nothing, they are just there.
They have nothing in any way to give them a reason for living.
They have been medically discharged.
There is nothing to be done medically but they are also there in the beds
drugged. She said: I see them dying.
I come here weekly; I come back to the hospital: Where is so-and-so?
Hoping so-and-so is gone to a long-term care facility but no, so-and-so
died. This is the kind of stuff that
is going on.
We look at the wait-list, for example, for long-term
care; the wait-list is only one thing.
The wait-list does not tell us how long people are in those beds in the
hospital waiting, those who are in chronic care beds.
Some of them are there, many are there for months, and there are cases
I have heard of people being there for over a year.
That is the kind of thing that is going on.
We know the concern in the Province with regard to
mental health care. They keep
promising. They have been talking
for years now, and every year they have a bit of money in the Budget.
Every year a bit of money with regard to a new Waterford Hospital.
When is that going to happen?
How long are we going to have to wait for that to be in place?
How long are we going to have to wait to have adequate community supports
for people so that when they do come out of hospital there are community
supports there for them?
What are they doing with regard to the penitentiary?
We know they have announced there is going to be a new penitentiary, but
are they going to do with the penitentiary what they do with hospitals?
Is the planning going to be more than just the planning for the facility
itself?
I remember in this House a few years ago, because it
was two Premiers ago when I asked - and I did; I was very concerned, and I
asked: What is the plan this was about Labrador West for the services that
are going to be in the Labrador West hospital?
The answer from the Premier of the day: We will figure that out when the
building is up. That is not how you
do it.
The building has to accommodate services.
The building has to accommodate people.
What is going to happen with the new penitentiary that they say they are
going to build? Are they now looking
at the kinds of programs that need to be in place so that those who are there
we have many people in our penitentiary who have addictions to substance.
They have substance abuse problems.
What is going to be done?
What are the programs that are going to be there?
Is that being planned simultaneously with the building that is being put
up? Probably not, because they do
not know how to plan.
This has been our theme here in this House.
Every time we ask for a plan, they say: Oh, here is a strategy.
Yet, the strategy is one thing; a plan is something that is concrete.
It has goals set to it. It
has timelines set to it. They do not
do that about anything, whether it is in the educational system, our health care
system. It does not matter what it
is, Mr. Speaker.
Even when it comes to our infrastructure, the roads and
the bridges and all the work that has to be done infrastructurally in this
Province. They do not have a
long-term plan for that. Show us
every year what is going to be done.
How do you prioritize so that communities know what they can expect?
But no, they do not do any of that.
Mr. Speaker, I am not happy with this Budget.
I am happy with bits and pieces that are in the Budget.
Am I happy with the approach this government takes?
No, Mr. Speaker, I am not.
Thank you very much.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace.
MR.
SLADE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I would just like to respond a little bit to the Minister of Transportation. I spoke about a road tonight in Carbonear on High Road North. The road on High Road North, of course, the town boundaries are there and the minister said no, it does not belong to the Department of Transportation.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to tell you about a couple of
roads in Carbonear like that, and conveniently these roads get lost.
They claim they cannot find them in their inventory.
The thing of it is right now, Mr. Speaker, that road does indeed belong
to the Department of Transportation.
The boundary line is to the first house in that road.
I can say that, Mr. Speaker.
I think the town has already sent the information into the Department of
Transportation and identifying where exactly the line is in that road.
The Town of Carbonear, out of courtesy, used to plow
that road so that the Department of Transportation would not have to come in
there and plow it. That was done out
of courtesy. We can say whatever we
want about it, but the minister needs to take it into consideration that this is
indeed a Department of Transportation road.
It is in a terrible, terrible state, Mr. Speaker.
It is to the point now that the town actually had to go up there just
this week past and put crushed stone over the top of what is left there for
pavement so that people would not be cutting the tires and everything off their
cars.
Mr. Speaker, it has to be dealt with.
I do accept his explanation of the painting of the highways, and we do
know we had workers injured last year as it pertains to that.
Again, it is very important.
I want to emphasize the danger that is around the TC Square area there.
Those lights are vehicle activated.
Of course, if you happen to pull your vehicle ahead of where the line is
supposed to be the lights will not change.
It will not pick up the vehicle.
Anyway, I would just like to explain to the minister that indeed it is a
Department of Transportation road. I
am sure I will have a chat with the minister about it at a later period in time.
I want to go back now, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to go back to a comment that was made here earlier tonight,
and in all due respect to government, about the $800 million.
I have no doubt in my mind, Mr. Speaker, over the last six years that
there was $800 million put in the District of Carbonear Harbour Grace.
I am not going to argue it. I
am not going to argue it whatsoever but I will say, because $800 million was put
in the District of Carbonear Harbour Grace, does that mean we are going to
leave all the rest of what I have here on paper behind?
Because that is not correct.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to go back to Harvey Street in
Harbour Grace. Again, a Department
of Transportation road that was supposed to be done two years ago.
It is not done up to this point in time.
The people in Harbour Grace are very concerned about that, as well as
other things in Harbour Grace, such as their stadium.
That stadium is near, dear, and important to the people in Harbour Grace.
I am going to stand here every time and speak about it.
I am going to bring forward petitions, whatever I need to do, Mr.
Speaker, to keep it on the lips of government, because it is just not correct.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SLADE:
I
am being brushed off here, and I know I am being brushed off, Mr. Speaker, but I
am going to stand here and speak.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SLADE:
Mr.
Speaker, I want to go back to the Riverhead situation.
Government did that road a few years back.
They elevated the road away from the ditch.
I have to be honest with you and say I was Mayor of Carbonear for eight
years and a councillor for twenty years, and never did I ever see work done
where the ditch is on one side of the road and the road is elevated opposite.
It just does not make sense.
Those residents, Mr. Speaker, those six or seven
residents there the member opposite might not think it is a serious situation,
but I can assure him for those six or seven residents there who are getting
flooded out every time you even have a drop of rain, and especially in the
wintertime. They were flooding out
down there several times this winter when the Town of Harbour Grace had to come
to their aid. So, it is no laughing
matter. I would like to certainly
have them look at that. If it means
a bit of curb and gutter needs to go in there, I would ask the Department of
Transportation to look at that because those residents there in Riverhead
deserve better.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to do this all over again
because I know they probably never heard me the first time.
In Freshwater, the beach road has to get fixed.
It needs to get fixed. I am
concerned about a fire taking place down there, Mr. Speaker, and those residents
down there getting caught in it.
I would like to bring something else up, too, Mr. Speaker, which I did not realize until three weeks ago. There is a community well down there and it has high levels of arsenic in it. That well is still being used. I have some serious concerns about it. I always thought that one of the biggest things of government was to provide clean and safe drinking water for our residents. Mr. Speaker, I have some serious concerns. The level of arsenic in that water is pretty high. We need to deal with that.
We need to deal with the issue of the beach area down
there because, Mr. Speaker, if a fire takes place these people could probably
get caught in there, and everybody deserves a fire escape.
Certainly we can do that for our people.
Mr. Speaker, I will go back for a minute there and
congratulate the government on the funding that Spaniard's Bay did get this
year. It is a great help to that
community. That community is a
growing community, as well as the Town of Victoria.
Victoria needs some major work done to it also.
I have to back to Bristol's Hope.
Bristol's Hope is the same thing, Mr. Speaker.
It is a wooded area. There
are a lot of homes down in Bristol's Hope and if a fire takes places there, I
could not say what the end result would be.
I am very concerned about it, concerned about the environment for those
two ponds, both in Freshwater and in Bristol's Hope.
There needs to be something done with it.
It needs to be addressed. I
cannot emphasize enough the dangers that are there.
Certainly, I would not want to be sitting in this chair or in a
government chair if anything takes places down there, when it was brought here
and there was nothing done with it.
It is just simply not good enough.
Mr. Speaker, I am going to go to Bryants Cove again
because, apparently, that did not hit home.
I do not know if members opposite heard me the last time I spoke about
it. What I said was in Bryants Cove
Point Road they call it the bus will not run in over it any longer to pick
up kids because they are doing too much damage to the bus.
So, that is a serious concern.
It is a concern that needs to be addressed.
Mr. Speaker, we have heard it said many, many times
about our seniors, in the wintertime how they were going to the malls, and one
thing and another, to keep warm. Our
seniors must be spending a lot of time in the malls this winter, due to the
blackouts. They had no choice; they
had to go somewhere in the warmth.
What we do not understand here in this House is that
most seniors do not have any secondary heat, and mothers of young families had
not way to make a bottle for their children.
We have to be doing so much better for our seniors in this Province.
We really do need to be doing a lot more for our seniors.
In Carbonear, Mr. Speaker, there are several units out
there that house somewhere in the vicinity of fifty or sixty seniors who are
moving into the town. We just have
to do so much better than what we are doing for our seniors.
We certainly should not be leaving them out on what we are doing.
Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to go back a little bit on
the fishery. Again, there are lots
of issues for the towns. Like I just
said to government, yes, the District of Carbonear Harbour Grace received
somewhere in the vicinity of $800 million over the last six years, and the
district certainly appreciates that.
It is infrastructure for the hospital and it is infrastructure for the school.
I will still never get my head around what took place with the numbers in
the school; I do not understand it.
Before they actually opened the school, there were four more new classrooms
getting built on to the school.
Somewhere along the way the numbers were definitely fooled up and I cannot
explain that. Anyway, I guess
building it on is better than portable classrooms, I suppose.
I just want government to know that it is very
important, the issues that I bring here, I am not bringing them here for me; I
am bringing them here for the constituents of the Carbonear Harbour Grace
district. We need to deal with the
issues that are out there. That is
all I am saying. I stand here every
day and try to do whatever I can for my district.
Like I said earlier tonight, as well as you guys over there try to do it
for your districts. I do not
understand why when I stand here I am being heckled and one thing and another; I
am standing here because I believe in representing the people in my district.
Mr. Speaker, there are concerns in all those
communities. There are concerns in
many of the towns. I just like to
stand and speak a little bit right now about limited servicing.
What that means is if the towns happen to go and build a road in the
community or something, it is not cost shared by the town and the Province.
Mr. Speaker, in order for our towns to grow, that Limits of Service
agreement has to grow. The towns are
trying to grow and survive and, of course, we as a Province like our communities
to be healthy, vibrant and bring in business to our communities.
We all do that. We like to do
that. Mr. Speaker, these are some of
the concerns that I have.
On a note on the fishery, we have to be very vigilant
on our fishery. If the fishery right
now you have COSEWIC there trying to make the codfish now an extinct species
or a species at risk. I did that
sentinel survey from 1996 up until last year, and I can assure you that we have
seen some great strides in the fishery and we saw some big numbers come in.
We can talk about the shrimp and we can talk about the crab.
As I said here the other day, when I opened up those
fish, when you see ten, twelve or fifteen female crab inside of them you say: Oh
my, what is going on? The same thing
is happening in the shrimp industry as what is happening in the crab industry.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
SLADE:
The
cod are back, so do we fish it to death before it gets a chance to come back in
a big way? No, of course we do not.
We should not do that; but we need to put it in check because if it does
not come in check, you will have a collapse not only in the shrimp industry, but
you will have it in the crab industry too.
That is just a simple fact.
Mr. Speaker, I would threaten to say that the fishermen
are the best scientists in the world.
They are out there in all kinds of weather.
They know when the water is dirty, they know when it is clean, they know
what the temperature of the water is, they know what the fish is like they
know. So, I would suggest to him
that they are the best scientists in the world.
Mr. Speaker, somebody on the other side there tonight
spoke about the science boat that the government has out there.
I will tell you, it is a wonderful idea to have it.
We need science to compare with science.
My question on it would be: The science being collected, does that go to
the federal government? Because we
have to remember something: It is not the Province that decides on whether a
fishery opens or closes; it is the federal government.
I think this government, along with other things that
we are doing here yes, the science part of it is a wonderful, wonderful thing,
guys. I will tell you, it is
absolutely fabulous that you have science.
You have to have it, because nothing gets done without it.
The federal government is not going to move on it until the numbers are
right, and we have to convince them when the numbers are right or whatever the
case may be.
So, Mr. Speaker, the science part of it absolutely.
There is a lot of science after going into the fishery, and we have to
explore other fisheries. There are
other species out there that harvesters could be catching, and we need to
explore that and make it a part of the Province's position to do those things.
It is not very good when you hear of fishermen from
down on the Northern Peninsula talk about turbot and how they are watching the
foreigners, we will say, or the people from Quebec coming over on the other
side, and they are fishing away.
That is indeed a problem, too. So
again, we just have to push forward as a Province and try to get this thing
going.
I congratulate the government on the science boat and
Dr. Rowe. It would be interesting to
see some numbers, because I think he has been doing it now for some three years.
It would be interesting to see some stats on that now to just see if it
is improving, or maybe the Minister of Fisheries could actually tell us if it is
improving, or it is going back the other way or whatever the case may be.
So, Mr. Speaker, there are lots of things we can do,
and do together. I thought the
shrimp piece, where you had the all-party committee, was absolutely a wonderful
idea. You went to the federal
government as a group. I will tell
you something, I really do believe that you spun some heads.
I really do, because we went there as a group, we went there together,
and we need to be doing a lot more of that kind of thing to bring our fishery
forward.
Mr. Speaker, on that note, I am going to sit down and I
certainly thank you for allowing me to speak.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for Cartwright L'Anse au Clair.
MS
DEMPSTER:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am happy to have a few minutes again, at the midnight
hour, to continue to speak to the Budget.
Mr. Speaker, we could be here a long time and we would never touch on all
the issues in our district that the people have elected us to speak to.
I loved when my colleague for Carbonear Harbour Grace referenced it as
the people's House because, really, it is all about the people.
When we speak, we are not speaking for ourselves with our own agenda; it
is just about being a voice for the people.
He mentioned the Limits of Service Agreement with
Municipal Affairs. That is my
background in municipal politics very, very rewarding work.
It is not easy work, Mr. Speaker, when you are in small communities and
you are volunteering and you have aging infrastructure, you have a shrinking tax
base, and you have seniors on fixed income.
It is hard to balance the budget, and I believe that we have a
responsibility to put supports in place for those people who step up to the
plate and offer themselves to be involved in the municipal governance part in
their community.
One of the issues, certainly, when I was there in my
community as the deputy mayor, and also when I sat representing all of the towns
in Labrador on the provincial municipalities board, one the big issues was the
Limits of Service Agreement. I met
with the former minister he will know a couple of times on that issue.
I know that the response was always if we open that up, then we are
broadening ourselves to a bigger area that we have to serve and support.
Mr. Speaker, everybody realizes that we do not have an
issue in our rural communities where most of them are fighting for space to
expand. We are only talking about a
very small number of people. Right
now, those communities, their growth are stunted.
I am going to use Charlottetown, my home community, as an example,
because I am very familiar with that community.
When the Limits of Service Agreement was put in place,
we did not have a Trans-Labrador Highway that moved on into another area.
We did not have the only shrimp processing facility in Labrador.
So, the Limits of Service Agreement was put in place and since that time,
we have had people come into our communities a number of times looking for land,
wanting to move in guess what? In
a land so vast as Labrador, affectionately referred to by many as the Big Land,
we do not have any land in our community the community where I live to
provide people with an opportunity.
Right now, we have communities around us and I know
that it would be so much easier on the government if they did the relocation.
I know that is what many would like to see happen.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if communities that have a shrimp processing
facility could say: Move into our community and from May to October every year
you are guaranteed your work? Say
good bye to the community employment enhancement programs.
Mr. Speaker, nobody is willing to work with us on that and help us move
forward, so that continues to be a problem.
I believe there were three communities, when I was
representing all the communities in Labrador, that consistently came to me and
said: We need help; we want to grow our communities.
Mr. Speaker, every day we talk about communities that are dying,
communities that are bleeding out, and when we have communities that have an
opportunity to grow, I believe we have an obligation to do everything we can to
put supports in place to help those communities to become more efficient and
more self-sustainable. So the Limits
of Service Agreement is something that certainly we need to be revisiting.
If you are worried about setting a precedent and
opening up a can of worms to use the analogy of the former minister we can
avoid that. Maybe we can say
communities that have a population of 500 people or less, or communities in the
Province with a 1,000 people or less that need to expand because their growth is
stunted and there is no land there for people who want to move in.
We should be revisiting that, Mr. Speaker, absolutely.
Another issue and I have been meaning to speak to it
for some time and I have not had the opportunity is Crown lands.
People submit an application, and so many departments, there is a
deadline on when you can expect a turnaround.
We have big, huge issues with Crown lands, Mr. Speaker.
We have people who cannot get their mortgages straightened out through
the bank until they have the deed on their land, yet we have people waiting for
up to two years when they submit an application.
There have been so many cuts in that department, Mr. Speaker, and the
people who are there, I believe that they are doing the best that can with what
they have, but the resources are simply not there.
So again, we have another situation in my area we are
always very pleased when people get work on bigger projects and they commute and
come back and they are willing to live in the region, but frustrating.
We have outmigration our outmigration, no one will argue, is much
greater than the people who want to move back.
Yet when the people do want to move back, the provisions are not there
and the supports are not there put in place for them to do that.
So obviously, Mr. Speaker, we still have some work to do.
We have a long way to go from where we need to be.
My colleague was just referring to seniors.
There are aging demographics in our Province, happening at record levels.
I did see a PowerPoint presentation that covered the aging demographics
in my district from L'Anse au Clair to Cartwright.
It is absolutely frightening the trend that we see that is happening.
Mr. Speaker, I do not see that we are getting ready in our rural
communities. We should be looking at
long-term care facilities in those communities.
We should be looking at places where seniors can stay in their home
region, where families can come and visit and they can age with some form of
dignity. Mr. Speaker, the
infrastructure right now is not there.
Now is the time when we need to be planning for that.
I think of communities like Cartwright.
It is not a big community, maybe 400 or 500 people, yet over 200 people
over the age of fifty in that community, Mr. Speaker.
We are not sitting down and we are not talking with the people on the
ground. We are not getting ready.
We are going to end up in a big crisis, Mr. Speaker, if we do not do
something about that.
Seniors in our region who have to travel very far for
specialist appointments, my heart goes out to them.
I met with the department a few months ago.
I remember a gentleman said to me: I do not agree with you that there are
disparities among seniors because they are all on the same income.
I could not agree with him, Mr. Speaker, because when you live far away
from a service and no, everybody does not want to relocate to an urban area.
I believe what you save in the service you provide to
the community you are going to pay for that in other avenues, like mental
health, Mr. Speaker. These people
are not going anywhere. So we need
to sit down and we need to be figuring out how we can provide a more adequate
service to these people.
This year has been extremely hard in the District of
Cartwright L'Anse au Clair on seniors.
If they are trying to get to Corner Brook for an appointment, sometimes
that has meant about a four-day cruise on the
Apollo or on the Bond.
It has been really, really frustrating and quite expensive.
Mr. Speaker, just last week when I was in St. Anthony a
couple of ladies I ran into expressed a great deal of frustration to me because
after waiting for weeks and weeks for an appointment, they got their voucher and
travelled for their appointment, only to find out the specialist was not even at
hospital. Mr. Speaker, I know that
is down at an operational level and it falls under a health board, but I believe
it comes back to better communication.
Communication needs to be improved everywhere.
As we move toward more transparency, more accountability, we need to do a
better job at communicating.
That is just one example, Mr. Speaker, of two people
whose way was subsidized from Blanc Sablon to St. Anthony for appointments that
did not happen. I am not sure how
much that is happening, Mr. Speaker.
I just happened to be there on a personal issue and I ran into these people.
No doubt, if we were to look a little closer under a
magnifying glass consistently we talk about the large demand and the budget is
simply not there to meet it, but, Mr. Speaker, there are so many ways we can
improve on what we are spending right now.
Absolutely, I believe there are so many ways we can do that.
Sometimes it seems like certain departments do a better job at more
efficiently managing money and then some others it just seems like money is
tossed out like candy, Mr. Speaker.
It is very concerning.
Mr. Speaker, the infrastructure needs in the district
are very, very huge. The small town
councils that run those communities, the only way they can do that is with
support through a 90-10 application.
That is where they apply to get roadwork completed.
That is where they apply to get water and sewer finished in the
community.
Right now, Mr. Speaker, I have three communities that
are looking for some assistance, some direction of an engineer, if we could work
together and collaborate to get wells drilled in their community.
We need to be working with those communities to help them do that.
We are talking about drinking water, basic drinking water.
Drilling wells, I believe that would be cheaper than a full water and
sewer project, Mr. Speaker.
It was just late last week that the community of Black
Tickle's water treatment plant was down.
I give credit to the minister for coming forward with some money so that
the people in that community you give credit where credit is due.
He saw the need so that the people in that community could get things
back up and running and have safe drinking water.
Sometimes, Mr. Speaker, the amount of money they are
looking for, when they cannot afford it themselves, is absolutely nominal
compared to the cost that would be inherited if those people would get sick,
which is what happened the last time back in 2007-2008 when their pleas for help
fell on deaf ears. Many people in
that community became sick and had to be sent out, Mr. Speaker.
So I am happy that right now they have the funding to get their water
treatment centre back up and running again.
Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about diabetes.
The cost to our health care system on a go-forward basis, I believe
numbers are showing, is going to be absolutely staggering.
It is going to be daunting.
So, Mr. Speaker, we have to be out front and centre on those things.
We need to be leading the way in terms of planning now.
We need to be playing a role more in prevention as opposed to
intervention. Type 1 diabetes, I
believe we have the highest in Canada.
Maybe we have the highest Type 1 in North America.
I was very, very pleased when coverage was brought in
for insulin pumps. I believe it is
up to the age of eighteen. Mr.
Speaker, I would encourage this government to look at funding insulin pumps
beyond the age of eighteen because until you live with it you read about it,
you hear about it, but until you live with it you do not understand the
benefits. I know in my household, it
meant that a little girl six years old went from five needles a day and very
poor control, to an insulin pump where she now takes one needle every three days
and her control has been so much better.
Right now, the cost of an insulin pump is $6,000 or
$7,000. It seems a lot to fund, but
compare that, Mr. Speaker, with what you are spending on patients in the
hospital who are on dialysis. You
think about smaller cottage hospitals, like St. Anthony, when they have to send
nurses out and specially train them to have those diabetes supports in place
with kidney dialysis. So, Mr.
Speaker, certainly there is a lot of work left to be done in that area.
If we continue to ignore we already know we are not
meeting the need in health care. We
see it every day. We hear it from
people who are waiting a year for appointments, calling in December and getting
your appointment for October. The
wait-list is far too long. Many
times, Mr. Speaker, because they are waiting that long other problems are
developing because of the lengthy wait-list.
You only have to make a visit to a hospital and you will hear five or six
very sad stories.
Eating disorders, Mr. Speaker; in meeting with a team
at the Janeway they told me it is becoming a real epidemic.
It is alarming. They just
cannot believe that nobody is talking about this.
I do a little bit of talking about it when I go around to schools.
Teachers are saying we would love to be educated on this.
We do not know the signs to watch for.
I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, when a young person, very
bright, smart, academically and athletically, when they end up in the hospital
for an eating disorder, oftentimes, maybe most times, that means a long hospital
stay. We are picking them up at an
intervention when there could have been, and there should have been, some
education on this up front. Why are
we continuing to ignore it, Mr. Speaker?
Something like an eating disorder is only going to
continue because of the society we are living in.
You cannot run to Walmart right now and pick up anything on the way out
at the checkout every single magazine that is in that store, Mr. Speaker, is
telling you how to lose ten pounds in five days or something.
This is the pressure that is on our young people today.
It is impacting a lot of young women, but it not just young women.
It is becoming a growing problem with males.
Mr. Speaker, I believe we only have ten doctors who are
working right across the country, specialists in the eating disorder field.
This is very, very concerning.
They are tired and they are overworked.
So I would encourage the Minister of Health to have a serious look.
Very little is being done. I
know Vince Withers has done some fantastic work, but they are only able to do so
much, and they need the supports to help them carry out this very, very
important work.
Mr. Speaker, often when I get up and I am kind of
moving around from different topics, but it is all things that impact the
district often I talk about the small communities and the supports that have
been stripped from those small communities.
Just a few years ago, we had our economic zone boards doing wonderful
work in our rural communities, and the Employment Assistance Services offices.
It was not a duplication of resources.
In many cases they were the only resource in the community, Mr. Speaker.
For no other reason maybe then to cut dollars and cents, those were cut.
Right now in our communities we are feeling the brunt
of that, because we have no co-ordinated economic development.
We have a handful of volunteers and they are stretched very thin, Mr.
Speaker. You have one individual who
might be on six or seven or eight committees, and people get burned out.
It is not right that the running of your community is being left totally
to volunteers. They are not able to
do it all.
This was not a huge amount of money.
This was a partnership between the feds and the Province, and the
Province pulled out of that agreement, Mr. Speaker.
The employment offices, it is very, very concerning what we have lost
there. I have mentioned it many
times. Just talking to my
constituency assistant tonight yes, she is working tonight, just like us here,
running late in the House. She works
many late nights.
With so many of the resources stripped from the small
communities, there is quite a big burden that can fall on a member's office, Mr.
Speaker. People who are coming in
and they are desperately looking for work, how do you close your door at 5
o'clock and say, sorry, the office is closed, when we know that we are the only
office for those individuals to come to right now and look for help?
As a result of budget cuts, it was the small communities that were the
hit the hardest. It was the
communities that were struggling; it was the communities that needed the
supports in place to survive.
Mr. Speaker, we need to get back and look at regional
collaboration. If we have numbers, a
population that is shrinking in communities
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MS
DEMPSTER:
and there is not enough money for every single town to have a fire truck, we
need to sit down and help communities work through a process and say if you come
together and if you share services, it does not mean that you are going to die
as a community, but here are models that we can show you where communities came
together, shared services and they thrived, Mr. Speaker.
I think when communities understand that it does not mean a loss to their
own individual community identity; I believe that you will see towns more
receptive to that.
We have moved past I believe one time there was
always this fear of why should that community have it when we want it.
We have seen the reality around us in small communities.
We have been hit very, very hard with cuts and I believe that you will
see a different atmosphere. Those
people need someone to come in and to help facilitate some of that process and
provide the supports. Right now, it
is definitely not there. Those
communities are left struggling on their own.
It is very, very sad, Mr. Speaker.
I do not have time left on the clock, but I would love
to stand up and talk about home care and the valuable work that people do in
home care, yet they are paid so little.
In long-term care, very much the same kind of work, Mr. Speaker, but
those people maybe get $17 or $18 an hour.
In home care, we see them get about $12 an hour.
Many times when I am in the district, people say to me: Why is there such
a big disparity?
I will get up and focus on that another time.
I thank you very much for an opportunity again to speak to the Budget.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Hear, hear!
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
hon. the Member for the District of Bay of Islands.
MR.
JOYCE:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I just want to stand here to have my few words on the
Budget debate here in the House of Assembly.
For the record, Mr. Speaker, here it is 12:19, past midnight, and here we
are supposed to have the House of Assembly open so people can watch, so people
can view what their parliamentarians are saying, what is being said in the House
and here we are at 12:20 a.m. So you
have to ask the question: Why?
If you look at the minister and you look at the
favouritism for tendering and releasing people of bonds and releasing people of
tenders in Labrador, all the heat that government has been taking lately on
that, if you look at the cost overruns of Muskrat Falls, I can see why they
would not want everybody to see what is going on in this Legislature.
I can see why they want to go past 12:00 o'clock; hopefully, people will
be asleep and not understand what is going on here.
Then we have seen here how these people opposite they
can all raise their hands how many of them put the knife in the former Premier
Dunderdale's back. They do not want
anyone to talk about that. The first
women Premier, Mr. Speaker
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
JOYCE:
The
first women Premier here and they touted the women Premier.
Guess what? They knifed her
in the back, Mr. Speaker. They do
not want anyone to talk about that, Mr. Speaker.
What happens then?
The minute they knife her in the back, the minute they get rid of her,
what do they do? She fooled up on
Bill 29,
mea culpa, Province; we redeem on this now, the people of
Newfoundland and Labrador. It was
not us; it was Premier Dunderdale.
Now, all the sheep over there, what are they going to do?
What are they going to do now, Mr. Speaker?
They are going to go out and repeal and review Bill 29.
I do not blame them for closing the House, making sure the House is not
open in the daytime so people can all this, the people in the Province, Mr.
Speaker. I do not blame them.
We look at Virginia Waters.
We just won the former Premier's seat in Virginia Waters.
They do not want to talk about that.
They want to stay open until 12:30 or 1:00 in the night because they do
not want anyone to hear us talking about all this.
I say to the minister, you are the first one I ever saw getting run over
by a paver, Mr. Speaker.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
I remind the member to direct his comments to the
Chair.
MR.
JOYCE:
I
am sorry, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr.
Speaker, most people in politics, we say we got run over by a bus, but the
minister is getting run over by a payloader.
Mr. Speaker, here we are in this Legislature, we are
supposed to be here, and every time any of us here says a word, we are critical.
We should be standing up here and we should be at their feet.
We should never say anything wrong.
I heard the Member for Carbonear Harbour Grace tonight talk about water
problems, talk about school problems he should not be.
How come, Mr. Speaker? How
come?
The Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs stood up
and said the process for schools in Mount Pearl is wrong; they should change it.
There was not a word over there not a word.
Even their own minister stood up and said the process is wrong.
The process is absolutely wrong; it should change, Mr. Speaker.
Guess what? Not a word.
That is all right, he is allowed to criticize; he is only a minister.
When we stand up for our districts oh, we are bad people.
So if anybody wants to stand up here and go
criticizing, look at your own minister.
He feels the process that this government set up, Mr. Speaker, is
absolutely wrong and that the decision should change.
So it is not only us over here who are saying there are problems with
this government. I thank the
minister for standing up for the people, that is what we are doing over here,
Mr. Speaker, and we intend to keep doing it.
I heard the Minister of Transportation and Works
tonight talking about how we all get treated the same.
I say to the minister I will be fair to the minister.
When I did call the minister to have a meeting, we did sit down and have
a discussion; but then again, the minister committed to me to get back on what
pavement is going to be done in Hughes Brook very, very, very dangerous.
What is going to be in the tender?
Mr. Speaker, I wrote the minister since and I am still waiting.
It is not me who is asking as much as the people who drive it on a daily
basis. This is a very serious issue.
When I wrote the minister on that it is because people want to know,
because if not we have to go on to government, explain why we need it all done.
It is very, very dangerous.
You are accommodating; I will be the first to admit it.
Then again, it is my role to ensure the safety concerns are brought
forward to the minister, and I will write again tomorrow.
I have a letter already drafted, Mr. Speaker.
I will write again.
The minister committed to let me know how much of
Hughes Brook if it is all going to be done, perfect, Mr. Speaker.
The minister said: Well, we are all treated the same.
We are all treated the same over here, according to the Minister of
Transportation and Works. That is
why the tenders are called earlier, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, just because a minister says it, it does
not mean it is always true. This is
why you have to question it. I heard
the minister tonight, and everybody is the same to him.
I did a bit of research while I was listening to the
minister speak. March 21, Baie Verte
Springdale, a tender announced; March 7, LabWest, tender; March 20, Heart's
Content another PC district; March 21, Trinity Bay de Verde; March 24, Bay
Bulls; March 28, Stephenville East, Port au Port; April 4, Placentia St.
Mary's; April 11, Gander; May 1, Conception Bay; May 2, New-Wes-Valley; May 9
all PC districts, yet we are treated the same.
What bothers me with this, Mr. Speaker I understand
politics. I understand how it works.
You cannot stand up in this Legislature and say we are all being treated
the same when I can read off the list and there is not one Liberal district
here. The problem with it, Mr.
Speaker, as much as they say they put money in the roads and I agree they put
some, not as much as they always said, because of carryovers every year is
that we have safety concerns in our own district.
We have major safety concerns.
Is this government telling me that the only people they
are worried about with safety concerns are the districts they are calling, all
PC districts? It is shameful, it is
actually shameful. Mr. Speaker, do
not expect me, as a member of this Legislature, to sit down and take it all in
and accept it all. I refuse to do
it.
When I look Hughes Brook, which is extremely dangerous;
when I look out towards York Harbour, Lark Harbour, extremely dangerous; as I
look at some places even in Humber West, in the Lewin Parkway, extremely
dangerous, and I have to sit here and listen to the minister say we are all
treated the same. Everyone that I
went to, not one Liberal district has any tenders called.
Mr. Speaker, I heard a rumor.
I am going to put it on record and see how far I am off.
I know out in Port au Port and Stephenville East there is already an
announcement made for funding. I
already know that. For the rest of
the districts on the West Coast, including theirs, there is going to be $6
million spent. That is the rumor I
heard from Transportation and Works.
It is not near enough, Mr. Speaker.
We look at all the tenders being called in these districts, yet we are all
treated the same.
All the safety concerns here in all the Liberal
districts are shameful. It is
actually shameful, Mr. Speaker, because we have safety concerns also.
If we are going to have tenders called so the work can be done this fall,
everybody in this Legislature should be treated the same because every resident
here deserves the same respect no matter where you sit in this House.
If you are not going to get the money, you should at
least say we are going to call the tenders and we will get the work done.
If not, Mr. Speaker, what is going to happen, there is going to be a
dangerous situation. We have to
bring it up. I am bringing it up
now, Mr. Speaker. I am bringing it
up right now because when I hear it, I look at the facts.
Facts say a different thing.
It is in writing. Everything I have
here is in writing because I took it right off the government's own Web site.
Mr. Speaker, we look at the hospital in Corner Brook.
Transportation and Works is doing a hospital in Corner Brook.
Guess what? They went out, I
think it was January or February, and put out a request for proposals to do the
hospital. Guess what?
The functional design is not even completed yet.
It is not even completed yet, Mr. Speaker, and here are the people out in
Corner Brook expecting there is someone starting the work.
Now, I will not get into the Premier, the Member for
Humber East, the Premier of this Province, who stood up in 2011 I was there at
the public meeting when the Premier stood up.
Of course, everybody believed him, but I knew there was something fishy
when he stood up and said construction will start in 2012.
We have the tractors up there now doing the work and the tractors were up
there.
In 2012, I came in in Estimates and the Minister of
Transportation, the Member for Harbour Main was the minister at the time.
He is the only member in this government who was honest about the
hospital. When I asked him in
Estimates: Where is the design? He
said Eddie, we are in the pre-design.
We do not have the design done yet.
I said but the minister announced the hospital.
You speak to him, he said, it is not even done yet.
Then, Mr. Speaker, when I raised that up, I took
Hansard, gave it to people in Corner Brook, gave it all around to people in
Corner Brook, here is what the minister said.
What did our Premier say?
What did the Premier, the Member for Humber East say?
He stood up at a Rotary meeting and said: I will not resign until there
is steel in the ground.
Guess what?
He is out there trying to give up his seat now.
He is asking Frank Coleman to come in as quick as possible to take his
seat. He is the same member, the
Premier of this Province who said he will not resign until there is steel in the
ground. Now, Mr. Speaker, with that
alone: Are we supposed to believe everything we hear?
Are we supposed to believe everything we hear from the members opposite?
That is just three or four examples.
Mr. Speaker, we have to remember the right-sizing of
the hospital. When the hospital
budget was set, Premier Dunderdale went out and met with the town council and
said: No, if it is $600 million it is not on.
Cut her down. Right-sizing
they called it, and they started slashing, they started cutting.
Then we got into a PET scanner and the radiation, we
got into that debate, Mr. Speaker.
For two years I stood in this House, I went on Open Line and my colleagues
also. There are colleagues here from
out on the West Coast. The Member
for Burgeo La Poile, the Member for St. Barbe, the other member we have four
or five over here, Mr. Speaker, and we kept at it.
We have four or five members and we kept at it
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
JOYCE:
I
think there were, what? How many
times? We had three or four public
meetings? Five or six meetings.
MR.
CORNECT:
(Inaudible).
MR.
JOYCE:
I
say to the Member for Port au Port, you did not have the intestinal fortitude to
stand up. You can stand over there
now. You can whimper next to him.
He can stand over there now and he can whimper next to the Member for
Stephenville East. He never spoke
one word.
If you did not have the intestinal fortitude to stand
up, do not get here at 2:00 o'clock in the morning, 1:30 in the morning and try
to tell me what I was doing was wrong.
You had the opportunity and you never.
Mr. Speaker, you can tell him he never had the intestinal fortitude.
In Newfoundland terms, he did not have the guts to stand up.
He never had the guts. He can
stand over there now and he can go off all he likes, Mr. Speaker, but he cannot
stand up in front of a public crowd and say, I agree with the government.
Mr. Speaker, when we were going on with the radiation
unit and the PET scanner, I was vilified.
I did not know what I was talking about.
I was fear-mongering, Mr. Speaker.
I had no idea what I was talking about.
We know there was a poll done out in Central which
showed that 70 per cent would not come to Western Newfoundland.
Then after we put a freedom of information in to look for the poll, there
was no such poll ever done. Yet, the
action committee, who I have to give a lot of credit to, did a lot of work.
The poll, Mr. Speaker, was never done.
After two or three public meetings, the Premier of the
Province stood up, and do you know what he said, Mr. Speaker?
We are not going to put one there; we are going to put two there now.
What do you think of that?
Now we are going to put a PET scanner in there.
Mr. Speaker, what we have to watch out for is this
Premier said this before. We have to
be a bit leery of what he says. Like
I said to him, and I said it to him straight up, excuse me if I ask questions
about what you say. Excuse me,
because my history and knowledge with the Premier on this hospital, you do not
take every word he says as gospel.
You do not take it to the bank and try to cash it.
This is why I have to keep the pressure on, to ensure that the radiation
unit and the PET scanner are in the design of the hospital, Mr. Speaker.
I can guarantee you one thing; you will not see the
Member for Port au Port or the Member for St. George's Stephenville East stand
up if they are going to cut the ultrasound units.
They are not going to stand up.
They are not going to stand up one bit, because they are cutting the
ultrasound units.
Mr. Speaker, what the former Minister of Health said is
that they are going to have a mobile unit to take it up.
We are going to have a mobile unit.
We are going to bring it to the patients.
When she stood up and said that, and the Premier, the Member for Humber
East said the same thing, I said there is something wrong again, just because
they said it.
So I put a freedom of information in, Mr. Speaker, and
guess what? Ninety per cent of all
patients who receive ultrasound tests in Corner Brook are outpatients.
They are not even in the hospital.
Here we are going to take out three machines which satisfy over 90 per
cent. We are going to put one mobile
unit in that is going to take care of the 10 per cent.
How foolish. When you speak
to the radiologist in Corner Brook, even with the mobile unit
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Oh,
oh!
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
JOYCE:
Yes, Mr. Speaker, I know they cannot handle it.
Even with the mobile unit, Mr. Speaker, it still has to
go back and get one with a unit that is stable because it is a better quality.
That is the next fight here now, Mr. Speaker.
To the Member for Port at Port, if you have the
intestinal fortitude, join us. Stand
up for your people, because this is bigger than any of us.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
(Inaudible).
MR.
JOYCE:
I
know, Mr. Speaker, it is hard for them to handle it.
I know it is, but guess what?
Any time you bring anything up to government that they may not, or a commitment,
unless you are the Minister of Municipal and Intergovernmental Affairs you are
all right to criticize the government, you can criticize the government then.
You are all right. Because he
is a minister and he is going out and standing up for his people, but if any of
us does it: oh, we are ungrateful; oh, we should not be saying any of this.
How about the money that was spent in Carbonear
Harbour Grace? How about that?
How about the water he was talking about?
We are not allowed to bring anything up.
We are not allowed to bring anything up at all, Mr. Speaker.
Guess what? They did not
elect me. The people of Bay of
Islands elected me, Mr. Speaker.
Until they do not elect me, they are going to hear what I have to say.
If the Member for Port au Port wants to stand up with me, he can.
If not, stay quiet like you are now.
Mr. Speaker, I am glad he is finally staying quiet.
Mr. Speaker, I will go on to the Minister of Municipal
and Intergovernmental Affairs. I
have to say to the minister, we had a great meeting with the York Harbour, Lark
Harbour council concerning amalgamation. It
was a great meeting, I have to say, and the issues were brought forward and
discussed in a great way.
In the Bay of Islands there are some major
infrastructure projects. Once again,
I look at water quality in Irishtown; water and sewer in Frenchman's Cove.
One end which was committed to but they did not come through with the
funding. There are sewer problems up
in the Summerside end; there is Cox's Cove; roadwork done in Mount Moriah.
Once again, Mr. Speaker, we are all treated the same.
I just wanted to let them know, the Liberal members here, we are all
treated the same.
On March 11 there was a major announcement of
infrastructure, Paradise; March 31, Pouch Cove; March 31, Bay St. George South;
April 11, Gander; May 2, Grand Bank; May 2, Bellevue.
There are no Liberal districts, yet they want to get the tenders out for
this Province early so work can get done unless you are in a Liberal district.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to ask anybody out there who
is up or wants to read Hansard. Is
it coincidental that we have a government who is out there saying we want to get
tenders out because we want to get work down?
Mr. Speaker, you can look it up yourself on the government Web site,
everyone happens to be from a PC district.
So all the people who are in Liberal districts, we do not need any of
that. That is just not true.
We are just saying that so hopefully you will believe us.
Mr. Speaker, the proof is there.
I challenge anybody to go on the government Web site.
I know some members are looking over there and they are embarrassed.
I know you did not know it, but I am telling you, look on the government
Web site. Mr. Speaker, members over
there are looking embarrassed and shaking their heads.
It is disgraceful the way they are treating people who
live in Liberal districts. They have
to have safe drinking water. They
have to have safe roads; yet, you will not do it.
It is absolutely shocking. It
is just unfair.
Mr. Speaker, before I close, I have thirty-two seconds.
I want to talk about the long-term care facility.
We know there are a lot of long-term care patients in acute care.
Talk about planning, Mr. Speaker.
When they built their long-term care facility in Corner Brook, guess
what? Their great plan; they cut the
long-term care facility by 100 beds.
I had to fight to get another extra wing open in the long-term care facility.
When you want to talk about planning, when you want to talk about the
needs
MR.
SPEAKER:
Order, please!
MR.
JOYCE:
By
leave?
MR.
SPEAKER:
The
member's time has expired.
This concludes the debate on the amendment to the
Budget motion. I am now calling for
a vote on the amendment.
All those in favour of the amendment?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against the amendment?
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Nay.
MR.
SPEAKER:
Motion defeated.
On motion, amendment defeated.
MR.
SPEAKER:
The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR.
KING:
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I move, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education
and Skills, that the House do now adjourn.
MR.
SPEAKER:
It
has been moved and seconded that this House do now adjourn.
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS:
Aye.
MR.
SPEAKER:
All
those against, nay'.
Motion carried.
This House stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow,
Tuesday.
On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until
tomorrow, Tuesday, at 1:30 p.m.